Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child • Hacker News Board

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#121

Post by jriot » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:08 AM UTC

mav3rick wrote: post #117

jriot wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to be the same for women here. It was their choice to have children thus leaving their field. Why do we care that not everyone is offered the same opportunities? Life isn't fair. Until I see women fighting to take on all the roles men have taken in life, Alaskan commercial fishermen, roughneck oil rig workers, loggers etc... and just not 1 or 2, equal representation throughout I am not concerned with unequal re…

"Why do we care that not everyone is offered the same opportunities? Life isn't fair." Does that mean we live with the status quo ? Whether it's institutional racism, sexism or plain fascism, do we not fight against inequalities in society to make it better ? You're lucky to have 24x7 electricity and internet connection, you wouldn't be so gung ho about "Life isn't fair" if you couldn't sustain yourself. "Until I see…

Life will never be fair. That is the status quo of life since the beginning of time, it will never change. Regardless of what you try to do, it will never be fair.

I didn't see women fighting to get into those physically demanding jobs, or demand quotas or any of the other nonsense we see today. It's fashionable to be tech because it is easy work that provides a comfortable lifestyle. Thinking otherwise is foolish.

I can decide these arbitrary standards just as one else can decide their own arbitrary standard just because they don't conform to your standards doesn't mean they are wrong.

Any quota placed on the diversity of race, gender or another divide we can think of is asine, waste of time, and pointless. You can think otherwise, I don't really care, I don't need everyone to like or agree with me. I accept that as a part of life.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#122

Post by gboudrias » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:16 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #82

gboudrias wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The closer your field's demographics are to your society's, the lower the risk of (unconscious) bias is. Science as a whole should strive to be as unbiased as possible, as that's the closest we can get to objectivity. The same logic applies to businesses, to reduce the risk of making mistakes that come with echo chambers.

Using Swedish statistics from a few years ago, 12.5% of the population has a professional job which has at minimum 40% men and 40% women. 88.5% do not. Split per gender this was 88.4% for men and 88.6% for women. If we state that bias is a risk then we must conclude that around 90% of the population work in echo chambers (more if we find that 60/40 is still quite bad segregation) and could use the benefit of reduced…

Could you explain what point you're making? I can't tell if you're disagreeing with me or not.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#123

Post by gboudrias » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:21 AM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #111

gboudrias wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The closer your field's demographics are to your society's, the lower the risk of (unconscious) bias is. Science as a whole should strive to be as unbiased as possible, as that's the closest we can get to objectivity. The same logic applies to businesses, to reduce the risk of making mistakes that come with echo chambers.

In India there is a more equal split between women and men in the STEM fields, yet women are much less liberated then in Western countries. The reason being is that women there are forced to enter whatever career gives them the biggest paycheck, which happens to be STEM. So, I'd say your assumption is incorrect.

I'm not saying it benefits the public necessarily, I'm saying it benefits those who opt for diversity. I don't expect STEM to have as big an impact on women's liberation as, say, business or politics. I don't think two cultures can be compared on this basis, my assumption is that, within one culture, diversified organizations will win out on average.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#124

Post by gboudrias » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:25 AM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #80

gboudrias wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The closer your field's demographics are to your society's, the lower the risk of (unconscious) bias is. Science as a whole should strive to be as unbiased as possible, as that's the closest we can get to objectivity. The same logic applies to businesses, to reduce the risk of making mistakes that come with echo chambers.

I've seen no calls to increase the numbers of conservatives/Republicans in STEM, despite the fact that political ideology and affiliation is actually testing the way people think. For example, though the percentage of scientists who lean Rep. is 12% to the general public's 35%, the percentages are 81% and 52% for lean Dem.[1] And the gap in other political values is high as well. Demographics are only slightly correl…

Maybe no one wants to spend money on this, but I think a greater diversity of viewpoints would lead to more trust from the public. It is a hard sell for either party though.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#125

Post by bobwaycott » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:25 AM UTC

therealforsen wrote: post #10

I have yet to be told why it is important for there to be as many women in STEM as men apart from statements that I'm sexist for not knowing

Who is suggesting there needs to be as many women as men in STEM?

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#126

Post by throwaway770210 » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:26 AM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #71

dgzl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're comfortable, could you describe some of your experiences facing sexism? Did you experience this after you released information that you're a divorced parent?

I have a Certificate in GIS. I worked at a Fortune 500 company for over 5 years in a Pink Collar Ghetto department. I wanted a job in the IT department, where jobs generally paid better. In all the years I worked there, I met only one person who knew what GIS was without me having to explain it. He was a senior programmer in the department I wanted a job in. He asked me for a date, thereby making it vastly less likel…

I too have been discriminated against due to my gender.

One of the first jobs I took (in IT) was for a large regional airline. After I had worked there for about a year, a position opened up that would have amounted to a promotion, both in pay and position. I had both the experience for the position, as well as a good reputation in the company. Further, my supervisor (with whom I had a good relationship) was in charge of the hiring effort, so I figured I had a pretty good in. Ultimately I was passed over for the position because my supervisor was a socially awkward man who used his position in the company to hire attractive women in hopes that they might one day sleep with him. He ended up hiring an (attractive) woman that worked nearby in accounting. She had no IT experience. I left because of this, and he hired two additional (unqualified) women this way before he got a little too touchy-feely and ended up fired.

I'm a man, in case you're wondering.

About ten years later I was working for a large healthcare provider. A position opened up for a senior software engineer and most of the software engineers in my department applied for it. Ultimately the head of IT ended up hiring an (attractive) data scientist from a different department, who had no experience in project management or software engineering. Everyone thought it was super weird until it came to light that he had hired her because she was his mistress and he was looking for a way to spend more time with her without arousing suspicion. He was also fired.

More years later, I put in a very competitive bid for some programming work with a company whom I had previously done contract programming work and had a good relationship with. Ultimately they selected someone else for the contract. Since I knew the owners, I contacted them directly to ask if there were anything I could have done to improve my bid. They explained to me that because they were a minority owned business (women) and were both of under-represented orientations (they were both lesbians) that they needed to select a contractor that reflected that, so they paid nearly twice as much to a small startup whom they had heard was also owned by lesbians. The project failed and they ended up paying almost three times as my bid.

Nobody I mentioned ended up ruined. The first two moved on to other jobs. The company that paid three times as much? Still around. They all paid a penalty for their bad decisions, though. Some people never do. Some people are just awful and life rewards them for it. It's not fair, but all you can really do is move on, try again, and do your best not to get bitter about the cards you've been dealt. I hope things get better for you.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#127

Post by aeredhel » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:28 AM UTC

jriot wrote: post #121

mav3rick wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why do we care that not everyone is offered the same opportunities? Life isn't fair." Does that mean we live with the status quo ? Whether it's institutional racism, sexism or plain fascism, do we not fight against inequalities in society to make it better ? You're lucky to have 24x7 electricity and internet connection, you wouldn't be so gung ho about "Life isn't fair" if you couldn't sustain yourself. "Until I see…

Life will never be fair. That is the status quo of life since the beginning of time, it will never change. Regardless of what you try to do, it will never be fair. I didn't see women fighting to get into those physically demanding jobs, or demand quotas or any of the other nonsense we see today. It's fashionable to be tech because it is easy work that provides a comfortable lifestyle. Thinking otherwise is foolish. I…

Original piece was about science, and it does not pay anywhere near as well as tech does. And plenty of jobs provide comfortable lifestyle, the IT is fashionable because it is all the hype now.

> I didn't see women fighting to get into those physically demanding jobs

I don't see hordes of men striving to be lumberjacks or miners either. For some reason most men want to sit in the comfortable office or a research lab too.

Although I agree with you about "life isn't fair and probably never will be" part, gatekeeping women from entering professions and not offering them equal opportunities (should be italicized) is not the unfairness we should keep. It is a degenerate mindset that must be eradicated.

But yeah, expecting equality of outcome is foolish and quotas are probably not a good idea.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#128

Post by bobwaycott » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:29 AM UTC

qaq wrote: post #38

DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally think it's necessarily important for there to be "as many women in STEM as men." But I do think those women who want to be there shouldn't be de facto run out by sexist practices. I was a full-time wife and mom for a lot of years. I don't self identify as a feminist. But, post divorce, I've found that sexism has been a real issue in establishing an adequate income to support myself and my sons. So…

Do you think a stay home dad with equal employment gap would have an easier time rejoining a workforce ?

I do--speaking as a single-dad who spent a few years working as a consultant and would never work more than 6 months out of the year (I always took time off during school breaks, summers, etc.). When I've applied for jobs over the years, I've never once been asked to explain those gaps. Of course, they were rarely longer than 6 months ... but there were quite a few of them. I've never even had the impression an employer has ever looked at those employment gaps before.

Hell, when I started my career--as a single father--I had no experience beyond what I'd done learning how to program on my own ... and I still had relatively few questions asked beyond me proving in an interview that I knew what I was talking about.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#129

Post by elliekelly » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:31 AM UTC

topmonk wrote: post #113

redditmigrant wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you agree to the basic principle that scientific ability and thought is equally prevalent amongst men and women, having fewer women scientists means we are not getting and developing the best scientific minds. Having as many women as men also means a you girl doesnt think science is for boys only which again means we potentially miss out on good/great scientific minds purely because they self-select out. So if you…

IQ tests show there are a greater number of men with very high IQs than women, and scientific ability highly correlates with IQ, so your “basic principle” doesn't hold muster.

Do you have a source for this? How can we be reasonably certain IQ assessments aren't inherently gender-biased? Is IQ directly-correlated to scientific contribution?

Richard Feynman's IQ was famously average though his scientific contributions to society were most certainly not.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#130

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 20, 2019, 1:34 AM UTC

gotocake wrote: post #3

chriskanan wrote: post #2

While the title focuses on female scientists, males are also affected. From the article: "...23% of men and 43% of women who had become parents had left full-time STEM employment. ... This compared to 16% of child-free men and 24% of child-free women."

That’s even more stark when you put it that way. Men leave at a rate of 9% more than their background rate when they have children, women leave 19% more with kids, over a base rate that even without children exceeds the male rate by 8%.

[deleted]