Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 165 posts

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#71

Post by DoreenMichele »

dgzl wrote: post #45
DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally think it's necessarily important for there to be "as many women in STEM as men." But I do think those women who want to be there shouldn't be de facto run out by sexist practices. I was a full-time wife and mom for a lot of years. I don't self identify as a feminist. But, post divorce, I've found that sexism has been a real issue in establishing an adequate income to support myself and my sons. So…

If you're comfortable, could you describe some of your experiences facing sexism? Did you experience this after you released information that you're a divorced parent?

I have a Certificate in GIS. I worked at a Fortune 500 company for over 5 years in a Pink Collar Ghetto department. I wanted a job in the IT department, where jobs generally paid better.

In all the years I worked there, I met only one person who knew what GIS was without me having to explain it. He was a senior programmer in the department I wanted a job in.

He asked me for a date, thereby making it vastly less likely that I would be able to work there (in his department).

I'm sure he stopped to think about whether or not it would tank his career to date me. No, it wouldn't.

I'm equally sure he didn't bother to wonder how the question would impact my future at the company.

(I'm sure he also never wondered what my educational background might do for the company. I imagine he would have wondered if I could do something for his department if he hadn't been thinking of me as a sex object.)

I also appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leader board of HN. Over the course of nine+ years, I've established exactly one useful contact through HN.

I've been endlessly mocked for thinking I could use HN to network and put up with endless crap that I don't really want to get into.

A piece of my writing hit the front page in January. It got more than 60k page views.

This did not result in a single tip or new Patreon supporter.

Instead, someone wrote me around the same time about a two month old comment where I talked about being suicidal over the sexism I face on HN. He offered to do a fundraiser for me out of sympathy.

I wrote back and said I would rather be taken seriously for my work and pointed him to the piece with 60k+ page views. He didn't reply to that.

I am routinely treated like a charity case, not like someone with something of value to offer that's worth money.

I'm on day six of a fast that is partly rooted in waiting for a deposit I expected Friday and still don't have and partly rooted in my inability to figure out how to turn my skills into money because I have the wrong bits between my legs to get taken seriously and paid for my work.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#72

Post by thomasmeeks »

therealforsen wrote: post #10

I have yet to be told why it is important for there to be as many women in STEM as men apart from statements that I'm sexist for not knowing

The answer is a quick Google search away, diversity increases innovation: https://www.google.com/search?q=diversity+increases+innovati...

If you don't agree with that, I'd love to hear why, and why the related studies are false. Can start with this one, which is the first result: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.685...

There's quite the bibliography to pour through there, though, if you really want to shatter the science behind why diversity is a good thing. Good luck!

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#73

Post by devwastaken »

therealforsen wrote: post #10

I have yet to be told why it is important for there to be as many women in STEM as men apart from statements that I'm sexist for not knowing

Because humans find reasons to look down on other 'groups' when they know that group is underrepresented, and therefore tergetable. Same as how people will talk shit about others and get reinforcement for it, until that person actually walks in. And because professional careers are a necessary path if we wish to have a 1st world where choice is possible. Without choice, others are deciding what you can do with your life. That's generally what patriarchy refers to, in that women are treated by, overwhelmingly men, who are in positions of power and use that power in a way to suppress that choice. It's not that they do this explicitly because they hate women, many do think that women are just inferior, but many are also making highly calculative reasons. It's a chicken and egg problem. But if we are to say we believe in morality, then it is many times necessary to overcome that problem by force of public acts.

Wether it's effective is highly circumstancial.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#74

Post by alkibiades »

b_tterc_p wrote: post #23

I would bet this is a symptom of STEM PhD holders being educated and tending to have wealthier partners. It’s not that they must leave STEM, it’s that they can, and many many people would prefer to raise a family than work

yes. everyone assumes that disparity == discrimination and that women have no choice.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#75

Post by noelsusman »

mikekchar wrote: post #31

Completely anecdotal evidence, but every female coworker I've ever worked with has left work to raise their child after the first baby. Every single one of them said that they were definitely coming back before they went on maternity leave (and I believe that they believed it). The main issue in every case was that as the new mothers got to the end of their maternity leave, they started to think about day care. In th…

Iceland has a system similar to what you're describing. The mother gets three months, the father gets three months, and the couple gets another three months to share as they see fit. It's been a rousing success with 90% of fathers taking all three months.

Compare that to Denmark where every couple gets ten(ish) months of leave that can be used by the mother or father as they see fit. Danish women take an average of 9 months off while Danish men take an average of 1 month off.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#76

Post by [deleted] »

kevincrane wrote: post #54
tomp wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is reducing bias the most important goal? (Definitely not for me. Life today is much better than it was 50 years ago in communist Yugoslavia, despite higher inequality and bias, due to progress in science and business.)

Imagine how much more progress we could have had in science and business if we didn't de facto force out so many possible candidates who were interested in the field after they had their first kid.

[deleted]

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#77

Post by ancorevard »

kevincrane wrote: post #35
ancorevard wrote: post #12

Life is short, few things are more meaningful and rewarding than raising human beings.

Then why don't men leave their fields in the same numbers as women after they have a kid?

One point to consider that relates to the first year at least is breastfeeding.

Science very heavily favors breastfeeding above the substitute. While pumping breast milk is a choice, it can be difficult in practice and some science points to it still being different for both the mother and the child in terms of hormonal differences and of course the physican touch/emotional wellbeing.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#78

Post by jhanschoo »

educationdata wrote: post #59
DoreenMichele wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally think it's necessarily important for there to be "as many women in STEM as men." But I do think those women who want to be there shouldn't be de facto run out by sexist practices. I was a full-time wife and mom for a lot of years. I don't self identify as a feminist. But, post divorce, I've found that sexism has been a real issue in establishing an adequate income to support myself and my sons. So…

I think you are wrong to claim current business practice as "sexist". Ideally, it would be nice for single parenting be as easy as traditional family, but in reality, nobody is entitled to easy life. Traditionally, people can also help each other through big family, church and other local communities. The new generation does not want to be involved in any of these. Now they want the government and their employers to…

What evidence do you have that current business practice that parent comment is facing and calling "sexist" is not sexist? Parent comment does not elaborate on the sexism she faces. You should be comfortable saying this only if you know that every aspect of current business practice is not sexist.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#79

Post by noelsusman »

kevincrane wrote: post #35
ancorevard wrote: post #12

Life is short, few things are more meaningful and rewarding than raising human beings.

Then why don't men leave their fields in the same numbers as women after they have a kid?

Because there is no social expectation for men to do so.

Re: Nearly Half of US Female Scientists Leave Full-Time Science After First Child

#80

Post by khawkins »

gboudrias wrote: post #29
therealforsen wrote: post #10

I have yet to be told why it is important for there to be as many women in STEM as men apart from statements that I'm sexist for not knowing

The closer your field's demographics are to your society's, the lower the risk of (unconscious) bias is. Science as a whole should strive to be as unbiased as possible, as that's the closest we can get to objectivity. The same logic applies to businesses, to reduce the risk of making mistakes that come with echo chambers.

I've seen no calls to increase the numbers of conservatives/Republicans in STEM, despite the fact that political ideology and affiliation is actually testing the way people think. For example, though the percentage of scientists who lean Rep. is 12% to the general public's 35%, the percentages are 81% and 52% for lean Dem.[1] And the gap in other political values is high as well.

Demographics are only slightly correlated with how people think, so this form of argument falls flat unless you think encouraging conservatives to get into science is far more important.

[1] http://www.people-press.org/2009/07/09/section-4-scientists-...

Post reply on HN