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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#291

Post by Steltek »

justaguyhere wrote: post #97
unethical_ban wrote: post #30

thatoneyouthrow got flagged for commenting on the hypocrisy of the tech Elite for their support of a government in Saudi Arabia that kills journalists and oppresses females with no apologies - that funds radical Islam throughout the world - in the comments of an article discussing Apple and Google distributing government oppression apps on their stores. It is odd. The keep from being too meta, I pose this question (s…

In an ideal world, it would be nice if we (governments, individuals, businesses etc) didn't support oppressive regimes and other bad actors. But would we though? Take Amazon - we know that they are almost as bad as Walmart on a host of issues, but how many of us would give up the convenience of one click shopping? It would be inconvenient, sure, but it is much easier for an individual to stop shopping at Amazon than…

Does it hurt to have priorities and pick your battles? Oppression, especially state-sponsored, of women and minorities is way higher concern to me than Amazon's many and varied infractions.

There's also a problem of feasibility: Fairphone eventually conceded on their idealized fair trade product after an amazing effort. There's also world hunger and disease resulting in serious but avoidable death.

You could call this hypocrisy if you want but it's a matter of resources available to fight for these causes.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#293

Post by andreasley »

ixacto wrote: post #89

Here is the Saudi abasher web-app hosted on the interior ministry. https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/Home/Home/!ut/p/z1/04_iUlD... Feel free to hack this website. Because this kind of behavior is not acceptable, this is a literal totalitarian nightmare.

What good, do you think, would come from having this website hacked? I can't imagine it leading to social change, which is what's required.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#294

Post by gyaniv »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

I don't think the neutrality argument works here. Because by having this app Google and Apple are clearly siding with the Saudi government.

The neutral thing to do was not to allow this app, but to also not allow an app that for example, helps women get out of Saudi Arabia.

This app helps clearly helps the Saudi government, and the men that choose to oppress their women (not all of them do), control the Saudi women. It makes this task easier and so helping it (by giving it a place and spreading it in your app store) isn't neutral.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#295

Post by tcgv »

lugg wrote: post #264
tcgv wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. Sure, but no western agent is obliged to comply with the moral standards of Saudi Arabia, or any other country to that matter. Apple, Google are complacent because they want to do business in Saudi Arabia. They're favoring profit over enforcing western morality within their operations…

You are right, no western agent is being obliged here.. The argument is a neutrality one, essentially that Google and Apple should not be enforcing morality here or abroad. Should we also just drop sanctions and ban exports to these nations while we're at it?

I was pointing out that the argument of sovereignty is flawed, since companies such as Apple and Google can at any time choose to respectfully withdraw their operations in Saudi Arabia if they feel their products and services are being used to curtail human rights.

Sovereignty in its own right cannot be used to justify complacency.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#296

Post by wonthegame »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

I think the stockholders would understand that SA is absolutely wrong and both should yank the app.

This app goes against human decencies and rights and that overrides the legality.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#297

Post by rapind »

sjwright wrote: post #287
tokyodude wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Google should yank the app. I think Apple should be forced to carry the app or open their platform. Android users can install whatever they want. Apple should not be in a position to prevent iPhone users from doing the same. To me if BMW said "You can buy this car but you're not allowed to drive to to Compton Los Angeles". The answer should not be "If you want to drive to Compton buy some other brand". It sho…

if BMW decided to limit their cars to roads approved by BMW, that’s their prerogative. Who are you to tell a private company what products they’re allowed to make? The correct solution is for consumers to buy the product that suits their needs. It’s worth pointing out that the BMW approved roads have much better fatality statistics than the unapproved roads, and there’s almost guaranteed to be an approved road that g…

What? If I buy the car, I own the car. BMW has no say in where I drive it.

I could only see this argument if I was borrowing / leasing the car from BMW.

You'd have to change what ownership means for this to make sense.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#298

Post by wonthegame »

wongarsu wrote: post #242
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

Are you not arguing and attempting to impose a stance on others right now? You don’t know which countries we are from and if our governments are aligned.

There’s a thing called human rights and we should all stand up for them.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#299

Post by wonthegame »

wongarsu wrote: post #289
lenkite wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't take rocket science. Are people being directly harmed by this product ? The answer in this case is clearly yes. Take down the app immediately. Freedom of speech is one thing. This app is _specifically_ created to harm women who want refuge.

I highly suspect "directly harmed" is a moral judgement, not an objective measure. If female genital mutilation "direct harm"? If yes, does the same apply to circumcision of males? If yes, is denying jewish people a religious practise (and thus potentially entry to heaven) "direct harm"? Different people will answer this very differently, even in the same country and culture. More applicable to this case: Is it ok fo…

Living in constant fear because of your gender and where you were born is direct harm. Being controlled by the opposite gender is a direct harm. Not being able to become educated because you are female is a direct harm to them AND men(and those in between).

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#300

Post by lobotryas »

drankula3 wrote: post #259
slowday wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms is in stark contrast to the idea of sovereignty and signals to everyone else that that kind of behaviour is ok. On the other hand, not using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms signals tha…

How do we draw the line in what norms to enforce? And who determines that those norms are actually better than the ones in place? It seems like this would be a great way for multinational corporations to become cultural and moral enforcers, which causes bad incentives to influence people towards consumption above all else.

For better or worse multinational corporations are already widely adapting that role. See: the “transgender bathroom bill” mess where many corporations dropped their support for the state in a concentrated effort to get the bill repealed. Even if the corp’s leadership is not agitating in such a way, then its employees probably are in the shape of Employee Resource Groups.
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