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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#281

Post by xkapastel »

glangdale wrote: post #248
wongarsu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

I like the idea that the Peace of Westphalia somehow is endangered by Apple or Google deciding to make business decisions that pertain to Saudi Arabia. I'm also enjoying your Total Commitment to this principle, extending to guarded support for the hypothetical "Apartheid Black Management App". The fact that you're talking in hushed tones of reverence about the glorious principle of sovereignty in a discussion of Saud…

What exactly are you trying to say? This post is nothing but empty snark. For example, are you trying to say that Saudi Arabia is not a sovereign nation?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#282

Post by 7Z7 »

artificial wrote: post #100
justaguyhere wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an ideal world, it would be nice if we (governments, individuals, businesses etc) didn't support oppressive regimes and other bad actors. But would we though? Take Amazon - we know that they are almost as bad as Walmart on a host of issues, but how many of us would give up the convenience of one click shopping? It would be inconvenient, sure, but it is much easier for an individual to stop shopping at Amazon than…

Convenience is one factor and an even greater factor is price. People have as much morality as they can afford.

For the things that make a smart phone smart. We expect people to be able to find locations without directions, access arbitrary information, receive email, use eTickets, access calendars, etc - on the go, at any time of their day.

Smartphones aren't really about phone calls or sms.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#283

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

megaremote wrote: post #182
sschueller wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pornographie is legal in the US, yet you won't find any of those apps in the app stores. Either you are neutral or you take full responsibility of what you offer in your walled garden. You can't have it both ways.

No, it is not full or none, that is ridiculous. You are allowed to have a line that you will not cross.

And they do. But what exactly is that line. Prurient content that empowers people? Banned. Content that literally allows control over non-consenting individuals based on their gender? Accepted.

This is like a serial killer who campaigns against littering. They have a line they won't cross, but we shouldn't accept it.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#284

Post by [deleted] »

sneak wrote: post #267
nogenerix wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trying to understand the 'neutral principles' line of thinking here. Obviously, the situation with this app seems straightforward on the surface (the app is immoral, it violates human rights), but articulating the reality of the situation is complex and requires nuance. Say I don't want to argue from 'neutral principles' but I still want to give other people's value systems a fair trial? Then I would consider thi…

> Maybe there's a good reason that women in Saudi Arabia have legal guardians? I urge you to rethink your comment.

[deleted]

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#285

Post by Zecar »

buboard wrote: post #202

The service is run by KSA. If google removes the app, they can still offer it through a website , or SMS. I don't see why they wouldn't ban it , considering they have banned far more innocuous stuff.

Didn't they ban Infowars?

Conspiracy theories: not ok Treating women as property: ok

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#286

Post by Zecar »

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #12
bduerst wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't any. Infowars and company were banned from various content platforms for violating platform policies. i.e. There's flat earth content on Youtube, that doesn't mean Youtube endorses flat earth conspiracies.

The violated policies were in regards to hate speech and bullying, no? How is this not a far worse case of hateful bullying?

Yeah apparently treating women as property doesn't violate Google's terms. Weird.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#287

Post by sjwright »

tokyodude wrote: post #217
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

I think Google should yank the app. I think Apple should be forced to carry the app or open their platform. Android users can install whatever they want. Apple should not be in a position to prevent iPhone users from doing the same. To me if BMW said "You can buy this car but you're not allowed to drive to to Compton Los Angeles". The answer should not be "If you want to drive to Compton buy some other brand". It sho…

if BMW decided to limit their cars to roads approved by BMW, that’s their prerogative. Who are you to tell a private company what products they’re allowed to make? The correct solution is for consumers to buy the product that suits their needs.

It’s worth pointing out that the BMW approved roads have much better fatality statistics than the unapproved roads, and there’s almost guaranteed to be an approved road that goes within minutes of where you want to go anyway. Oh and some of those approved roads are exclusive to BMW and they’re really well made.

Or you can get the Jeep Cherokee, which drives really well on that dirt track.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#288

Post by slowday »

drankula3 wrote: post #259
slowday wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms is in stark contrast to the idea of sovereignty and signals to everyone else that that kind of behaviour is ok. On the other hand, not using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms signals tha…

How do we draw the line in what norms to enforce? And who determines that those norms are actually better than the ones in place? It seems like this would be a great way for multinational corporations to become cultural and moral enforcers, which causes bad incentives to influence people towards consumption above all else.

I simultaneously feel like, in this particular case, neither are the corporations themselves the cultural and moral enforcers, nor is deciding on where to draw the line on which norms to enforce relevant.

The former because the rights groups which criticize the corporations are the ones driving the supposed change and enforcing their own morality. Rights groups are probably better moral arbiters than corporations, on account of there being less conflict of interest. And the latter because, while the line can definitely be very hard to trace in various, more ambiguous situations, I really don't think this specific case is one of those. It feels like a slippery slope argument to me, specifically: "If we enforce this, what else are we going to end up enforcing?"

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#289

Post by wongarsu »

lenkite wrote: post #275
drankula3 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do we draw the line in what norms to enforce? And who determines that those norms are actually better than the ones in place? It seems like this would be a great way for multinational corporations to become cultural and moral enforcers, which causes bad incentives to influence people towards consumption above all else.

Doesn't take rocket science. Are people being directly harmed by this product ? The answer in this case is clearly yes. Take down the app immediately. Freedom of speech is one thing. This app is _specifically_ created to harm women who want refuge.

I highly suspect "directly harmed" is a moral judgement, not an objective measure.

If female genital mutilation "direct harm"? If yes, does the same apply to circumcision of males? If yes, is denying jewish people a religious practise (and thus potentially entry to heaven) "direct harm"? Different people will answer this very differently, even in the same country and culture.

More applicable to this case: Is it ok for parents to see where their children are? Is ist ok for parents to get an alert when their children cross a geofence? If in a culture the husband is viewed as the guardian of his wife, is it ok if the husband uses the same app for his wife?

Note that I don't endorse any of these things, I'm simply saying that "are people being directly harmed by this product" is sometimes a deep philosophical or psychological question that is arguably harder than rocket science.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#290

Post by 908087 »

mscasts wrote: post #211
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

They already block porn because it's sensitive in the US. Games where you shoot people in the head or drive people over is okay though. I can't see how this differs.

Are you saying you don't see the difference between video games, and an app that is meant to harm/control actual living human beings?
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