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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#251

Post by wongarsu »

glangdale wrote: post #248
wongarsu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

I like the idea that the Peace of Westphalia somehow is endangered by Apple or Google deciding to make business decisions that pertain to Saudi Arabia. I'm also enjoying your Total Commitment to this principle, extending to guarded support for the hypothetical "Apartheid Black Management App". The fact that you're talking in hushed tones of reverence about the glorious principle of sovereignty in a discussion of Saud…

You didn't provide any actual arguments, instead just dismissing what I said out of hand (in a needlessly snarky way).

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#252

Post by solatic »

Animats wrote: post #132
burtonator wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Hooli someone is going to launch Halali ... Cloud hosting according to the laws or the Koran.

It exists, sort of. There's a "halal search engine"[1]. Iran has something like the Great Firewall of China.[2] Saudi Arabia has official censorship, and they're open about it; there's a web form for requesting that something be censored, and blocked sites divert to a page saying it's blocked.[3] It seems that Iran's system is fairly tight, but the Saudi system isn't really that strict. On the other side, there are m…

An important note regarding the "kosher" ISPs - they're opt-in. Anybody who has an account with a "kosher" ISP is free to cancel and get an account with an unrestricted ISP. That makes them qualitatively different from Chinese etc. ISPs where people have no choice but to submit to censorship.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#253

Post by mschuster91 »

int_19h wrote: post #197
mschuster91 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that sanctions have to be enforced, and the current US government is... severely lacking in that aspect: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-28/the-trump...

Yep. And not just the present one - Saudis have a strong lobby. But we're still a democracy. Not a perfect one, but if enough people want something, they have the tools to make it happen.

> Not a perfect one, but if enough people want something, they have the tools to make it happen.

Not if they live in heavily gerrymandered districts or in deep-blue/red states, or if they are affected by voter disenfranchisement, or if they cannot afford leave their job to go to vote.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#254

Post by nogenerix »

glangdale wrote: post #213
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

This is a typical argument from 'neutral principles'.In this kind of thinking, the notion of 'being fair to everyone in a principled fashion that is easily and mechanistically describable' is more important than say, the notion of 'not oppressing women, even if the Saudis think it's OK'. This is itself a value judgement and comes down to your opinion. Like the old joke about turtles, it's opinions all the way down. I…

I'm trying to understand the 'neutral principles' line of thinking here. Obviously, the situation with this app seems straightforward on the surface (the app is immoral, it violates human rights), but articulating the reality of the situation is complex and requires nuance. Say I don't want to argue from 'neutral principles' but I still want to give other people's value systems a fair trial? Then I would consider things like the intentions and outcomes, right? Maybe there's a good reason that women in Saudi Arabia have legal guardians?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#255

Post by slowday »

wongarsu wrote: post #242
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

> Using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms is in stark contrast to the idea of sovereignty and signals to everyone else that that kind of behaviour is ok.

On the other hand, not using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms signals that their norms (and the behaviour they cause and justify) are ok. And that's how you get millions of women horribly mistreated.

Sovereignty may be a great concept, but not when you use it to justify and normalize abuse. I feel like that should be condemned and not tolerated under any circumstances.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#256

Post by pvg »

glangdale wrote: post #248
wongarsu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

I like the idea that the Peace of Westphalia somehow is endangered by Apple or Google deciding to make business decisions that pertain to Saudi Arabia. I'm also enjoying your Total Commitment to this principle, extending to guarded support for the hypothetical "Apartheid Black Management App". The fact that you're talking in hushed tones of reverence about the glorious principle of sovereignty in a discussion of Saud…

Maybe it's a LaRouche-ist.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#257

Post by watwut »

krapp wrote: post #233
watwut wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, you are saying that radical feminist activists are right?

Why "radical feminist activists" as opposed to just "feminists?" Objecting to companies only embracing progressive or feminist ideals publicly for the sake of PR or marketing while not actually taking any risks within their own culture isn't exactly radical.

Because radical feminists activists are subset of feminists. Feminism itself has many different strands and it make sense to specify which one you mean. I wanted to be quite specific in which argument exactly I mean.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#258

Post by geofft »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #198
geofft wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I'll be able to prevent them from making that demand simply if I don't make demands either. (I certainly don't think that they're not smart enough to realize that a demand could be made until they see me make one, for instance, nor that they're that exact shade of polite that thinks this is an illegitimate tactic until they see it used at which point it becomes legitimate.) So I don't think this is, in…

> I don't think I'll be able to prevent them from making that demand simply if I don't make demands either. (I certainly don't think that they're not smart enough to realize that a demand could be made until they see me make one, for instance, nor that they're that exact shade of polite that thinks this is an illegitimate tactic until they see it used at which point it becomes legitimate.) It's not that they won't ma…

If my demands were going to be listened to, then no legitimizing is necessary for anyone. If legitimizing were necessary, then their demands are useful because they legitimize mine, no?

I'm not interested in defending against theirs by appeal to some principle that I don't think anyone believes in either way. I'm interested in making the case that I'm right and they're not. If I'm not right, I shouldn't win the argument, they should. And I am right and big tech is run by people who aren't smart enough to understand why, we're all screwed anyway so whatever.

I have trouble distinguishing the "don't legitimize it" argument from, say, "You shouldn't engage in political attack ads because it legitimizes the other side using them," "You shouldn't have an army because it legitimizes other countries having an army, and what if they invade you one day," and so forth. Without some concrete reason to believe that the other side either wouldn't or couldn't use a tactic, refusing to use it on principle is just planning to lose.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#259

Post by drankula3 »

slowday wrote: post #255
wongarsu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

> Using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms is in stark contrast to the idea of sovereignty and signals to everyone else that that kind of behaviour is ok. On the other hand, not using our influence over Apple and Google to project power against Saudi Arabia and try to force them to agree to different moral norms signals tha…

How do we draw the line in what norms to enforce? And who determines that those norms are actually better than the ones in place? It seems like this would be a great way for multinational corporations to become cultural and moral enforcers, which causes bad incentives to influence people towards consumption above all else.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#260

Post by tcgv »

wongarsu wrote: post #242
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

> Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do.

Sure, but no western agent is obliged to comply with the moral standards of Saudi Arabia, or any other country to that matter.

Apple, Google are complacent because they want to do business in Saudi Arabia. They're favoring profit over enforcing western morality within their operations abroad, and will continue to do so as long as they don't get too much scrutiny.

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