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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#261

Post by watwut »

JackPoach wrote: post #245
watwut wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically, personal spyware apps are removed from both apple store and play store. That includes apps for abusive or jealous western partners that were meant to limit freedom of their partners. You will be surprised I guess, but I would take issue with app that facilitates genocide in Yemen. As people did. People do take issue with IBM facilitating Nazi project during wwii. I would take issue with app that notifies I…

I disagree with you. First, spyware is installed without anyone's knowledge and this is not the case. Second, I can agree with you that any decent human being would be outraged. The reason of this outrage isn't this specific app, but rather how women are mistreated there. So my question is this. We can all take moral high ground and demand that Google takes this this app down. But if you look at the situation broader…

No, spyware does not have to be installed without anyone knowledge. Spyware is software that enables a user to obtain covert information about another's activities. The app that sends one partner wherabouts to another one without the first wanting it so is equal outrageous when used by jealous western girlfriend.

Ad second paragraph: how does that changes anything? Same app from Iran is same problem. Similar app watching Chinese dissidents is same issue. All would be against Google terms of services too.

You are also changing topics and goalposts. The "how to magically improve situation of women in every single oppressive country in the world" was not the topic of this thread. It was whether preventing this app constitute "asking Apple and Google to proactively police their apps, if they are designed to prevent freedoms on not" with implications for bank apps, bible and koran.

Of course pressure on Google wont solve problem. No single action will ever solve the problem. It might make the Google to contribute to the problem less. There is difference between passively not doing anything and actively contributing to the problem. That is fine.

Then again, keeping the app will not solve the freedom issue either.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#262

Post by jack1243star »

leoh wrote: post #194
vkazanov wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more important question is: whose "modern political opinion" is the decisive one. Notice that even relatively politically close countries have diverting understanding of important cultural issues. Think about sex-related subcultures in Japan and, say, US.

What sex-related subcultures in Japan are you talking about?

Not OP, but possibly illustrated child porn? Perfectly legal in Japan if censored correctly, illegal in France, Germany and other countries. See also the Mastodon and Pawoo split.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#263

Post by sandworm101 »

int_19h wrote: post #148
sandworm101 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In saudi arabia, women are property. This is no different than an app to track a stolen car or lost pet. Compared to all the stuff men are allowed to do to/with their women... this app is probably the least outrageous wrong. We need to get mad at the countries who support the real physical harms, those that enable abuse or at least do very little to prevent it.

> We need to get mad at the countries who support the real physical harms So, Saudi Arabia?

And the UK. They have turned a blind eye several times when saudi women have asked for help while traveling in the uk. And all those countries who refuse saudi women refugee status.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#264

Post by lugg »

tcgv wrote: post #260
wongarsu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

> Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. Sure, but no western agent is obliged to comply with the moral standards of Saudi Arabia, or any other country to that matter. Apple, Google are complacent because they want to do business in Saudi Arabia. They're favoring profit over enforcing western morality within their operations…

You are right, no western agent is being obliged here..

The argument is a neutrality one, essentially that Google and Apple should not be enforcing morality here or abroad.

Should we also just drop sanctions and ban exports to these nations while we're at it?

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#265

Post by sneak »

tokyodude wrote: post #217
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

I think Google should yank the app. I think Apple should be forced to carry the app or open their platform. Android users can install whatever they want. Apple should not be in a position to prevent iPhone users from doing the same. To me if BMW said "You can buy this car but you're not allowed to drive to to Compton Los Angeles". The answer should not be "If you want to drive to Compton buy some other brand". It sho…

> Apple claims total dominion over what apps you can run on your iOS device

This stopped being true some years ago. You can build any app you wish from source and Xcode will sign it and you can run it on your iOS device—no approval or payment required.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#266

Post by sneak »

wongarsu wrote: post #242
stickfigure wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? I think it's pretty reasonable for the court of modern political opinion to pass judgement on the more egregious examples of injustice in the world. Yes, morality is relative, but there's a strong majority opinion on this - especially in the countries that build the technology…

> Would you be willing to make this same argument for a (hypothetical) Apartheid-era app that enabled whites to manage blacks? Yes (but only begrudgingly). Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation. That means within their borders they can do as they please, even if we don't like what they do. We fought one of the most devastating wars in history (the 30 years war [1]) trying to control what other people think, and at the e…

I feel like the only reason anyone is making this “but they are sovereign” argument is because the discrimination is in this instance against women and not against people who wish to use a compiler or run a specific OS kernel.

I wish people could see injustice as unjust even if they are not in the targeted group.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#267

Post by sneak »

nogenerix wrote: post #254
glangdale wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a typical argument from 'neutral principles'.In this kind of thinking, the notion of 'being fair to everyone in a principled fashion that is easily and mechanistically describable' is more important than say, the notion of 'not oppressing women, even if the Saudis think it's OK'. This is itself a value judgement and comes down to your opinion. Like the old joke about turtles, it's opinions all the way down. I…

I'm trying to understand the 'neutral principles' line of thinking here. Obviously, the situation with this app seems straightforward on the surface (the app is immoral, it violates human rights), but articulating the reality of the situation is complex and requires nuance. Say I don't want to argue from 'neutral principles' but I still want to give other people's value systems a fair trial? Then I would consider thi…

> Maybe there's a good reason that women in Saudi Arabia have legal guardians?

I urge you to rethink your comment.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#268

Post by NoblePublius »

rgbrenner wrote: post #53
NoblePublius wrote: post #23

I can’t believe that Lyft doesn’t cover the Bay Area with billboards that say “Saudi Arabia beats women and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia murders gay people and owns 10% of Uber.” “Saudi Arabia crucified two people last year and owns 10% of Uber.”

They can't because Saudi Arabia also owns part of Lyft (2.3%): https://www.reuters.com/article/lyft-kingdom-holding-ma/saud...

I live in NYC and dont use either. Juno FTW.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#270

Post by atomical »

dang wrote: post #204
atomical wrote: post #21

It's interestinghow comments like this are downvoted. But then, YCombinator has an interest in keeping Saudi Arabia happy.

The comment was in fact heavily upvoted. It takes time for the vote totals on a comment to work themselves out. I'm personally responsible for HN and can tell you that "keeping Saudi Arabia happy" has never entered my awareness until you brought it up. We just banned your throwaway account for trolling. If you continue to use HN for flamewars, trolling, or personal attacks, we will ban your main account as well. http…

I don't use a throwaway account. Please post proof before attacking me.
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