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Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#121

Post by lern_too_spel »

S_A_P wrote: post #61
thatoneyouthrow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are helping them violate human rights. Therefore, they do have a list. It's just the wrong type of list.

A lot of assumptions here. Do they know that is the explicit purpose of the app? Has it been reported? Again I don’t agree with their policies, but who’s job is it to keep track? I would think the press. However since the business mandate seems to be peddling outrage it’s easy for things to get lost in the Twittersphere.

According to Business Insider's reporting, in addition to setting travel restrictions for dependents (which includes adult women in KSA), the app also allows you to pay parking tickets.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#122

Post by romwell »

There's a lot of discussion here, but I don't see the important question being asked:

How (and whether) the removal of this app will help the women in Saudi Arabia:

1)In the short term

2)In the long term

I.e. if the alternative to using the tracking app is not being able to travel (in the realities of that horrible state), then removal will make life of many women worse in the short term.

Calls for bans and removals are the easiest form of moralizing without addressing the actual problem in any way.

The same kind of logic brought us FOSTA/SESTA, which few people here are happy about. Let's not fall into the same trap.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#123

Post by nl »

thatoneyouthrow wrote: post #69
nl wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I don't believe that Google or Apple should make money from the oppression of women. I believe this app is free, so they don't appear to be in this case. Nevertheless, I'd like to see it removed. But nor do I believe that Sundar Pichai or Tim Cook were aware of this app previously or had any personal responsibility for it. Nor do I think they should be vilified for shaking hands with MBS prior to the murder of Kha…

Did Tim Cook not realize Saudi Arabia executed homosexuals before he shook his hand? Can he really feign ignornance?

I believe at the time there was an optimism that MBS would be a positive for change. Remember the optimism around when he announced the changes to allow women to drive...

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#125

Post by lern_too_spel »

hopler wrote: post #8

What happens if a woman goes to passport control without the app? Is she allowed to pass through?

The reporting is pretty clear that the app isn't used to cross the border and is not intended to be used by women at all.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#126

Post by nl »

FuckOffNeemo wrote: post #66
nl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thatoneyouthrow got flagged for his personal attacks on people. The quote "None of these men care about women or LGBT unless it's legally enforced." is clearly untrue, and simply doesn't address what is a multi-faceted issue. It's worth noting that if citizens of the US are concerned about this, then the citizens have the power - via government - to fix this by imposing trade sanctions.

For the sake of argument here, consider a different perspective. Can the voting US public really make a difference to foreign policy with the UAE\Saudi Arabia? === There's a grey area that's worthy of discussion, but we the voting public and as voters for democratically elected governments have cracked the shits with governments and international businesses for much less than what Saudi Arabia have done as a hostile,…

I think it is worth noting that Saudi Arabia doesn't have any popular ground level support (as far as I can tell).

Yes, money buys influence. But that only goes so far in the face of widespread hostility. The "they took money from XXX" negative argument does really work if everyone hates XXX.

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#127

Post by OpieCunningham »

xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is probably a good place to start.

https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ind...

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#128

Post by slg »

geofft wrote: post #109
xyzzy123 wrote: post #102

I am surprised that no-one has brought up a neutrality argument yet. The app is legal within Saudi Arabia and in fact published by their government. Are we to take down any app which violates anyone’s morals? Or just the morals of particular countries? If an app is blasphemous by the standards of say Mormonism or Islam, should we take it down? After everyone is done, how many apps will be left? If we enforce some mor…

Neutrality is a moral viewpoint in itself. It's the viewpoint that nobody is actually wrong, that simply by being a country you have a right to have your moral views respected. In the specific case of app stores, it's the viewpoint that everyone deserves to have the things they're doing made more efficient, and that helping anyone speed up their work is virtuous. (Neutrality, by the way, is IBM's present defense of D…

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."

~Desmond Tutu

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#129

Post by [deleted] »

jammygit wrote: post #46

Its hard for Google to point to some TOS violation when roughly half the app ecosystem revolves around tracking people in order to manipulate their behaviour (ads, gambling, etc). Their app is doing what most mobile apps are designed to do. Its just more successful than usual since the creator is a nation state.

[deleted]

Re: Apple, Google criticised for Saudi Absher app that tracks women

#130

Post by SauciestGNU »

alacombe wrote: post #118
ixacto wrote: post #89

Here is the Saudi abasher web-app hosted on the interior ministry. https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/Home/Home/!ut/p/z1/04_iUlD... Feel free to hack this website. Because this kind of behavior is not acceptable, this is a literal totalitarian nightmare.

Retaliatory unprovoked attacks are not acceptable either.

>unprovoked

I think you could argue the existence of a platform for managing women as chattel is provocation enough.

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