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Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

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Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#101

Post by gmueckl »

gandhium wrote: post #15
skh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

> it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan They were specifically mentioned in emperor's address. Yes, they caused the surrender. > Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not military targets They were military targets. There was army HQ, troops stationed there, factories which were producing military goods.

I was going to say that considering an entire city as a contiguous military target is a war crime. However, a quick search makes me doubt that such a provision was part of any relevant treaty in 1945. Massive bombings were inconveivable when the second Hague Convention was signed in 1907.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#102

Post by remarkEon »

porpoisely wrote: post #17
skh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

This isn't a serious comment, and is a gross misrepresentation of WWII history. It's deeply concerning to me that WWII history is being rewritten as just another example of the evil United State Empire being racist again (you're not the only one who thinks this wrongly about WWII).

We're probably less than a decade away from revisionist history bleeding over into 9/11, and people will actively teach my children that the United States deserved it as some kind of cosmic karma.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#103

Post by krapp »

kcorbitt wrote: post #93
krapp wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Manhattan Project wasn't focused on developing the atomic bombs just for dropping on the Japanese. The US was afraid of Germany developing a bomb first, and evidence presented here[0], at least, suggests several tactical and strategic reasons for choosing Japan over Germany (such as superior German air support, the perceived greater likelihood of Germany's imminent surrender versus Japan, and fears that Germany m…

> several tactical and strategic reasons for choosing Japan over Germany (such as superior German air support, the perceived greater likelihood of Germany's imminent surrender versus Japan, and fears that Germany might better be able to reverse engineer a dud than the Japanese.) ...well, there was also the fact that Germany had already surrendered by the time the first atom bomb was built.

>...well, there was also the fact that Germany had already surrendered by the time the first atom bomb was built.

That did probably make the calculus a lot simpler.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#104

Post by [deleted] »

remarkEon wrote: post #102
porpoisely wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

This isn't a serious comment, and is a gross misrepresentation of WWII history. It's deeply concerning to me that WWII history is being rewritten as just another example of the evil United State Empire being racist again (you're not the only one who thinks this wrongly about WWII). We're probably less than a decade away from revisionist history bleeding over into 9/11, and people will actively teach my children that…

[deleted]

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#105

Post by krapp »

int_19h wrote: post #97
dsq wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"..the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb...should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization...This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Power". - Imperial Rescript on Surrender, by the Showa Emperor (H…

A superweapon is a convenient thing to blame one's surrender on. But if you look at the discussions the Japanese war cabinet had behind the scenes these days, it's clear that they were worried about an imminent Soviet invasion just as much as the bombs.

> But if you look at the discussions the Japanese war cabinet had behind the scenes these days, it's clear that they were worried about an imminent Soviet invasion just as much as the bombs.

Can you post a source for these? Google hasn't been any help.

English translations, obviously, would be preferred.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#106

Post by krapp »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #99
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After Hiroshima and the Russian invasion of Manchuria, but before Nagasaki, the Japanese army was preparing to impose martial law on Japan to prevent anyone from surrendering. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#August_9:_S... After Hiroshima, the Russian invasion of Manchuria, and Nagasaki, Japan still went through an attempted coup to try to prevent the surrender. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrende…

You're treating acts committed by a handful of officers as done by the entire army or nation. Neither act means that the bombs had a bearing on the decision.

We're not talking about a democracy, though. This handful of officers and the emperor were the decision makers.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#107

Post by theoh »

opo wrote: post #82
porpoisely wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

The atomic bomb was the only reason given by the Emperor for the surrender in his address to the nation. Even after 2 atomic bombs were dropped there was an attempted military coup to prevent the Emperor from surrendering. >...They were both racially driven war crimes and crimes against humanity. Why do you say they were racially driven? The same types of civilian bombing was done in Germany as was done in Japan. If…

There are serious debates about these issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombing...

Your stated confidence that there was no difference in the way Germany and Japan were viewed in terms of racial difference from the US—come on, how is that supposed to demonstrate anything other than a personal desire to prove that racially-tinged animosity wasn't a factor?

Protip: don't expect a historically sophisticated, humane, balanced historical account to emerge from HN comments.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#108

Post by ekun »

porpoisely wrote: post #7

What an interesting read. Also, is it just me or are there a surprising number of german related topics on the frontpage right now? "We only had one man working on it and they may have had ten thousand" This is why I always chuckle at the ww2 "documentaries" positing the possibility of german or japanese bomb. Nevermind that both parties were preoccupied fighting far stronger and larger opponents ( US, British Empire…

If you look more into it, Germany was very close to being able to build a reactor that would have been able to produce plutonium. Their graphite reactor research never went critical because they didn't know that the boron impurities in graphite was absorbing too many neutrons. I'm not saying if they knew that they would've had the resources to make enough plutonium for a bomb, but the German scientists wren't that far away. Having said all that, if you read through all of these documents it seems like they had no idea how the bomb was built and designed.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#109

Post by qqn »

Overall a neat piece of history to read, to sit in that disbelief as fragments of the world start being lifted back up from the ground where they've shattered. Neat quotes:

Heisenberg: I believe this uranium business will give the Anglo–Saxons such tremendous power that EUROPE will become a bloc under Anglo–Saxon domination. If that is the case it will be a very good thing.

Heisenberg: [T]he days of small countries are over.

Weizsäcker: Our strength is now the fact that we are 'un–Nazi'.

Heisenberg: I believe that we are now far more bound up with the Anglo–Saxons than we were before as we have no possibility of switching over to the Russians even if we wanted to. On the other hand we can do it with a good conscience because we can see that in the immediate future Germany will be under Anglo–Saxon influence.

Weizsäcker: If I ask myself for which side I would prefer to work of course I would say for neither of them.

Weizsäcker: History will record that the Americans and the English made a bomb, and that at the same time the Germans, under the HITLER regime, produced a workable engine. In other words, the peaceful development of the uranium engine was made in Germany under the Hitler regime, whereas the Americans and the English developed this ghastly weapon of war.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#110

Post by boomboomsubban »

krapp wrote: post #106
boomboomsubban wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're treating acts committed by a handful of officers as done by the entire army or nation. Neither act means that the bombs had a bearing on the decision.

We're not talking about a democracy, though. This handful of officers and the emperor were the decision makers.

A handful of officers made decisions, not this particular one. Preparation for martial law had the backing of one member of the six man Supreme War Council, while the coup never had anyone above the rank of major or lieutenant colonel onboard.

>We're not talking about a democracy, though.

Like the democratic decision to drop the bomb? This is a silly statement, everybody involved had most of the power consolidated into a few hands.

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