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Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org

81–90 of 124 posts

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#81

What an interesting read. Also, is it just me or are there a surprising number of german related topics on the frontpage right now? "We only had one man working on it and they may have had ten thousand" This is why I always chuckle at the ww2 "documentaries" positing the possibility of german or japanese bomb. Nevermind that both parties were preoccupied fighting far stronger and larger opponents ( US, British Empire…

>..We had a much larger economy and resource potential than germany and japan. Just like we do today. It was a race neither had a chance of winning.

Germany spent about an equivalent amount of money in the V1 and V2 rocket programs that the US spent on the Manhattan project. Though Heisenburg later claimed he had sabotaged the German effort, the evidence seems to be a bit in favor of saying that he just miscalculated the amount of uranium needed so that it looked like it would be impractical as a weapon:

>...The largest piece of evidence was that Heisenberg had miscalculated the critical mass needed to achieve an atomic bomb, and thus still believed that tons of U-235 was necessary to create the bomb.

http://holbert.faculty.asu.edu/eee460/anv/Why%20the%20German...

>...Most military leaders saw it as serving no military purpose. So ultimately, hiroshima and nagasaki were the largest human experimentation in ww2.

They weren't chosen at random. For example, the original target for Nagasaki was supposed to be Kokura:

>...The American bomber was a B-29 named Bock's Car, and it was supposed to drop the world's first plutonium bomb on Kokura. Three times, Bock's Car passed over Kokura, bomb bays open, a hum in the cockpit signaling that the bomb was ready for release, the crew wearing the special goggles that were supposed to protect them from the flash of the atomic explosion.

>But although the radar scope was locked on to Kokura, the orders were to drop the bomb only on visual identification of the huge arms factory that was the target.

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/07/world/kokura-japan-bypass...

The use of the atomic bomb was both a military and political statement.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#82
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

The atomic bomb was the only reason given by the Emperor for the surrender in his address to the nation. Even after 2 atomic bombs were dropped there was an attempted military coup to prevent the Emperor from surrendering.

>...They were both racially driven war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Why do you say they were racially driven? The same types of civilian bombing was done in Germany as was done in Japan. If we had the atomic bomb before the war ended in Germany, I am sure it would have been used there.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#83
How did we end up purifying the amount of U235 needed?

I saw on another page "General Leslie Groves consulted with lead scientists of the project and agreed to investigate simultaneously four separate methods of separating and purifying the uranium-235: gaseous diffusion, centrifuge, electromagnetic separation and liquid thermal diffusion."

Seems like a ton of work.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

"we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender." That may well be the case but it is not remotely clear that the people making that decision knew it for a fact which is what actually has bearing on the morality. Also - why focus so much on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The bombing of Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg, London, Coventry, etc. were all attacks on civilians. We tend to judge atomic…

>The bombing of Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg, London, Coventry, etc. were all attacks on civilians.

And at the time it appears the military leaders saw the atomic bomb as primary an optimization measure for carrying out this kind of city-wide attack.

(See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War)

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#85
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

"..the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb...should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization...This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Power". - Imperial Rescript on Surrender, by the Showa Emperor (Hirohito).

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#86
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the Germans surrendered my dad's division was scheduled to be transferred to the Pacific for the invasion of Japan. At least that is what they were told. He was happy to hear of the bombings on Nagasaki and Hiroshima since from his perspective it caused the Japanese to surrender. Of course it's debatable on whether or not those bombings did indeed cause the surrender of Japan. Politically the U.S. has not been…

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

> It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender.

Not only is this debatable but it is often debated.

Your post is absurd. In your mind the Holocaust is morally equivalent to the nuclear bombings of Japan. That's crazy: Japan and the US were engaged in a war (that Japan started) whereas the Jews (and other victims of the Nazis) were not at war with Germany.

If you want a more nuanced perspective on the bombings and the surrender of Japan, read Downfall by Richard B. Frank. Even if you disagree with Frank, acting like there's no debate on this subject is dishonest. There's plenty of debate. In my opinion, people who talk about issues like this in absolute terms are unwilling or unable to grapple with the complexity that necessarily exists in wartime.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#87
post #23

What an interesting read. Also, is it just me or are there a surprising number of german related topics on the frontpage right now? "We only had one man working on it and they may have had ten thousand" This is why I always chuckle at the ww2 "documentaries" positing the possibility of german or japanese bomb. Nevermind that both parties were preoccupied fighting far stronger and larger opponents ( US, British Empire…

There were 3 issues involved in the decision to drop the bomb: 1. The battle of Okinawa was fought vigorously by the Japanese leading the allies to increase their estimates of the cost of war on the Japanese homeland. 2. The fear that if the war lasted too long then the Soviet Union would enter the pacific war and carve up Japan in the same way we carved up Germany 3. Japan's desire for a conditional surrender It is…

I find it very peculiar that you use "we" when talking about the USA country from 84 years ago, is it just me?

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#88
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't debatable because we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender. If the nukes were the cause of japan's surrender, hiroshima would have been enough and nagasaki wouldn't have happened. Also, there is no ambiguity to the morality of hiroshima or nagasaki. No more than there is any ambiguity to the morality of nazi death camps. They were both racially driven war crimes and…

"..the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb...should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization...This is the reason why We have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the Joint Declaration of the Power". - Imperial Rescript on Surrender, by the Showa Emperor (H…

Total extinction of human civilization? I disagree. Total extinction of Japanese civilization. Absolutely.

Re: Conversations among German Nuclear Physicists at Farm Hall (1945) [pdf]

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we know hiroshima and nagasaki had no bearing on the japanese decision to surrender." That may well be the case but it is not remotely clear that the people making that decision knew it for a fact which is what actually has bearing on the morality. Also - why focus so much on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? The bombing of Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg, London, Coventry, etc. were all attacks on civilians. We tend to judge atomic…

>The bombing of Tokyo, Dresden, Hamburg, London, Coventry, etc. were all attacks on civilians. And at the time it appears the military leaders saw the atomic bomb as primary an optimization measure for carrying out this kind of city-wide attack. (See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fog_of_War )

It's worth mentioning that more civilians died in the firebombing of Tokyo than in either of Hiroshima or Nagasaki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo). That was a conventional bombing raid (essentially covering the city in napalm).

However the psychological impact of the nuclear attacks being a single bomb is important to consider as well.

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