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EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

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Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#131

Post by dalore »

jmanderley wrote: post #29
blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

Tough luck, the UK gave up its voice in the EU willingly. No one forced Brexit on you.

Actually it kind of is. The majority don't want it. People got tricked into voting for it (heck no one knew what they were voting for). A slim majority hold everyone hostage by saying will of the people, everyone who voted knew they were voting for no deal. Lot's of deception and big money on the leave side with possible Russian troll bots trolling away on facebook riling up English pride etc.

A major change like that should not have been decided by a slim majority. Normally changes in parliament that are big require some super majority. It was a dubious narrow win, and according to polls the old people who voted leave are dead and it's a clear majority to remain.

You got a small group of hardliners in the majority government holding them hostage. The government who lost most of their seats in the vote after the referendum (kind of showing that people didn't really want it) but only held on due to a sneaky pairing up with a small Irish party called the DUP.

No one wants the deal offered, no one (but a few hardliners) wants no deal. Most want to remain but it's being forced on us because "will of the people". It's madness.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#132

Post by NeedMoreTea »

noir_lord wrote: post #124
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a hard border returns to Northern Ireland, as it might, all it could take is one border incident to kick things off again. This contract matters, as does keeping free movement on the island. For everyone in Ireland, north and south, and many in Britain too.

I'm just old enough to remember the IRA blowing thing up in the late 80's and nineties on the mainland. I don't think any sane person wants to go back to mortar attacks on Westminster. It seems strange how we dealt with the ever present threat of the IRA differently to the threat of Islamist terrorism. Yet in terms of casualties the IRA killed more people more regularly.

Me too, I was working in Docklands when there was the bombing [1]. First time I ever saw an armed policeman in a mainland UK street. Forget pistol, they were wielding MP5s.

> threat of the IRA differently to the threat of Islamist terrorism

Fully agree. The overreaction has been extreme. I don't understand why the political reaction hasn't been more like it was.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Docklands_bombing

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#133

Post by chimeracoder »

notahacker wrote: post #104
blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

If you're going to open a post with "let's be accurate here" then it helps to post something which is remotely close to the truth. The withdrawal agreement ensures that the UK will leave the EU entirely within a fixed period with the exception of a tiny, economically isolated region which actually voted to remain, which would continue to be subject to some Single Market rules (to its immense economic benefit) under a…

> Irish Unionists have more obvious reasons to oppose the deal due to the symbolic importance of an Irish Sea border and their own interpretations of the GFA

I'm not super caught up on the deal and the various takes. What is this referring to and what interpretation of the Good Friday Agreement is unfavorable to the deal?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#134

Post by isostatic »

Silhouette wrote: post #107
Tomte wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to distinguish freedom of movement (people) and a customs agreement (goods). Sweden and Norway are both Schengen members, so they have explicitly agreed on freedom of movement for people. That does not say anything about goods. But I don't know why such an arrangement could not work with the UK (both the UK and Norway are members of the European Economic Area) – presumably because the UK wants to leave that…

In the interests of clarity, there are really (at least) four distinct issues with the border crossing. The first is simply whether people have a right to physically cross the border. This is, broadly speaking, the Common Travel Area that was established on the island of Ireland long before the EU or any of its predecessors existed. The next is Freedom of Movement, which is one of the "Four Freedoms" that underpin th…

Good summary. The first two are irrelevant in the case of Ireland (I can't see anybody imposing restrictions on Irish people living in Northern Ireland, although I don't think the GFA specifically allows it)

It's the last two that are the problem - the customs is the immediate one (as regulations won't change on March 31st), the latter has potential to cause major problems in the future, unless the UK remains aligned with EU standards.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#135

Post by growlist »

dalore wrote: post #120
oaiey wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so confused why a nuclear power is so worried about a line in a contract. Breaching a contract always happens and as long as something good comes out of it no one cares. AND everyone wants to have a good outcome here. No one wants an explosive Northern Ireland again.

Because then no country trusts or will do deals with you again. Let's see Britain is struggling to get trading partners, so let's show ourselves unworthy to be trading partners. That doesn't help.

Doubtful. I'm sure plenty of countries would hold their nose and rub their hands together at the prospect of better access to the UK's market.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#136

Post by max76 »

"For the first time, the trade agreement includes countries' Paris climate deal commitments."

This is a brilliant answer to the tragedy of the commons. Often times people ask why they should make great efforts to be more environmentally friendly when other groups are not. This creates multiparty incentives attached to real economic benefits to keep their word on climate change. I hope The US, China, and Russia all enter economic agreements with similar clauses.

EDIT: I didn't mean to single out those three countries. All countries should include these clauses in their economic agreements. India, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Canada are top ten polluters that are not covered in this specific agreement or mentioned by me above.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#137

Post by btilly »

dalore wrote: post #118
btilly wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth pointing out that Northern Ireland does more trade with England than it does with all other trading partners combined - including the rest of Ireland. If you're going to put a custom border somewhere, where does it make sense to put it?

It makes no sense to put it anywhere. Because you can't put a new border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Just because it does more trade with England doesn't mean anything, that's because England is bigger. What's more important is that you can't put a border or wall or customs check really between NI and Ireland.

And this is the impasse.

There are three possible outcomes here. Reverse course to remain, May's deal, or a hard Brexit. Each has about 1/3 support, and so none of them can win a vote. However the default if there is no further legislation is a hard Brexit.

Now to this issue.

Few want a border between the two halves of Ireland. Few want a border between Ireland and Great Britain. The price that the EU wants for no border is that the UK has to continue to comply with all EU regulation, and the UK gets no say in said regulation. Few in the UK want that.

The inevitable result is that, whatever happens, most people won't want that outcome. But that won't matter because they can't agree on whatever other outcome they would have wanted instead.

And this is how train-wrecks happen in slow motion.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#138

Post by theoh »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #116
simonh wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agreement contains a commitment by the British and Irish governments to develop "close cooperation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union". It's hard to see how we can do that as, er, not members of the European Union. I believe the Common Travel Area is also a key issue as it commits us to open travel through the border which on the face of it seems incompatible with…

"I believe the Common Travel Area is also a key issue as it commits us to open travel through the border which on the face of it seems incompatible with leaving the customs union." No, this happens elsewhere already. Compare Norway - it is in a common travel area with the EU (Schengen), but out of the EU customs union. They're different issues.

Norway's membership of the EEA is a prerequisite for its Schengen membership.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#139

Post by smcl »

asnrk wrote: post #129
smcl wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Brexit kind of is being forced upon the people Scotland and Northern Ireland who voted to remain (and, as Arethuza correctly noted, it's now likely that a majority of the UK population overall are against it anyway).

That the narrow result of a single vote is seen as sufficient justification to wildly swing a government's policy in a new direction with huge effects over decades is... baffling to me. Watching it happen is like seeing something announced by someone pretending to be a US President in a Saturday Night Live sketch and then, the next day, everyone treating it like a real thing that had happened and the whole state's po…

You’ve put my feeling into words far better than I could have

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#140

Post by growlist »

celticninja wrote: post #101
oaiey wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am so confused why a nuclear power is so worried about a line in a contract. Breaching a contract always happens and as long as something good comes out of it no one cares. AND everyone wants to have a good outcome here. No one wants an explosive Northern Ireland again.

I'm really not sure what your point is. Clarification?

It's clear to me - why is such a powerful country acting like such a cowardly custard?
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