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EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

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Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#101

Post by celticninja »

oaiey wrote: post #80
barrkel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who identify as Irish and hold Irish passports who live in Northern Ireland and would be cut off from the Republic without the backstop. It's precisely the making of national identity a non-distinguishing factor that underlies the peace process. The backstop is publicly popular in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland voted by a substantial majority to Remain. The DUP is the only party that voted agains…

I am so confused why a nuclear power is so worried about a line in a contract. Breaching a contract always happens and as long as something good comes out of it no one cares. AND everyone wants to have a good outcome here. No one wants an explosive Northern Ireland again.

I'm really not sure what your point is. Clarification?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#102

Post by frostburg »

oaiey wrote: post #80
barrkel wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who identify as Irish and hold Irish passports who live in Northern Ireland and would be cut off from the Republic without the backstop. It's precisely the making of national identity a non-distinguishing factor that underlies the peace process. The backstop is publicly popular in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland voted by a substantial majority to Remain. The DUP is the only party that voted agains…

I am so confused why a nuclear power is so worried about a line in a contract. Breaching a contract always happens and as long as something good comes out of it no one cares. AND everyone wants to have a good outcome here. No one wants an explosive Northern Ireland again.

Nuclear weapons won't do much about car bombs in London or help with EU negotiations unless the UK wants to re-enact a more rainy Mad Max after leaving.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#103

Post by btilly »

barrkel wrote: post #58
blibble wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

There are people who identify as Irish and hold Irish passports who live in Northern Ireland and would be cut off from the Republic without the backstop. It's precisely the making of national identity a non-distinguishing factor that underlies the peace process. The backstop is publicly popular in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland voted by a substantial majority to Remain. The DUP is the only party that voted agains…

It is worth pointing out that Northern Ireland does more trade with England than it does with all other trading partners combined - including the rest of Ireland. If you're going to put a custom border somewhere, where does it make sense to put it?

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#104

Post by notahacker »

blibble wrote: post #25
pavlov wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. The EU isn’t that, though. The withdrawal agreement negotiated by May does fulfill those criteria, but Brexiters still don’t like it — fancy that.

let's be accurate here: the reason the brexiteers (i.e. the ERG) don't like the withdrawal agreement is that it gives the EU effective control of the UK economy without any mechanism for the UK to leave that arrangement without the EU's permission which is the sort of term a victor of war forces on a defeated party the ERG agreed earlier this week that if this part of the agreement is dropped they will vote for it, o…

If you're going to open a post with "let's be accurate here" then it helps to post something which is remotely close to the truth.

The withdrawal agreement ensures that the UK will leave the EU entirely within a fixed period with the exception of a tiny, economically isolated region which actually voted to remain, which would continue to be subject to some Single Market rules (to its immense economic benefit) under a temporary provision unless and until it was replaced by a subsequent agreement or an arbitration committee was persuaded that the UK had devised a customs regime which didn't conflict with the UK's separate legal obligations to uphold the GFA and WTO trading rules.

Which is the sort of term that people claiming to want to launch a new era of trade agreements with the whole world and claiming that the Irish border could be adequately solved with technology wouldn't be particularly bothered by if they believed what they were saying. (Irish Unionists have more obvious reasons to oppose the deal due to the symbolic importance of an Irish Sea border and their own interpretations of the GFA)

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#105

Post by barrkel »

oaiey wrote: post #99
AndrewDucker wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that the UK makes the EU trade with it by threatening to nuke it if it doesn't? Because that's horrifying, and I can't see how else to read your comment.

No not at all. They negotiate like two normal entities. But I think it is funny to have a nuclear power being scared about a line in a contract it signs. It can just declare: I ignore that line and then wait what the other side will do. The worst case is that the EU is also breaking the contract - maybe completely - which is then ... the same as no-deal.

I don't really see what relevance nuclear weapons have on trade agreements. Trade is an iterated cooperation game. Nuclear weapons have no second turn.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#106

Post by nradov »

ionised wrote: post #83
nradov wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning GMO meat doesn't protect consumers. It's just unscientific pandering to special interest groups.

Banning hormone-treated beef and chlorine washed chicken would protect customers from shitty food though.

Those issues are separate from GMOs.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#107

Post by Silhouette »

Tomte wrote: post #54
Reason077 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) couldn't actually come up with a single bit of evidence that this is actually so." The Norway-Sweden border would be one example. Just like Ireland-Northern Ireland, they are not in a customs union but allow free movement of people.

You need to distinguish freedom of movement (people) and a customs agreement (goods). Sweden and Norway are both Schengen members, so they have explicitly agreed on freedom of movement for people. That does not say anything about goods. But I don't know why such an arrangement could not work with the UK (both the UK and Norway are members of the European Economic Area) – presumably because the UK wants to leave that…

In the interests of clarity, there are really (at least) four distinct issues with the border crossing.

The first is simply whether people have a right to physically cross the border. This is, broadly speaking, the Common Travel Area that was established on the island of Ireland long before the EU or any of its predecessors existed.

The next is Freedom of Movement, which is one of the "Four Freedoms" that underpin the EU Single Market. This is also about people, but rather than physical movement, it relates to what they can legally do. Notably, it grants someone from one side of the border rights to live and work on the other.

The third is customs. This is about moving goods across the border, whether tariffs are payable to do so, and the mechanisms for monitoring and enforcing any such tariffs. At present, with the UK and Ireland both in the EU and its Customs Union, there are no tariffs and so no checks or infrastructure are needed.

The fourth is regulatory compliance. This is also about moving goods across the border, but it's about the non-tariff barriers, such as whether products for sale meet environmental or safety standards, or whether live animals or food products meet health requirements. These matters are typically regulated at the level of the EU's Single Market, so again, with the UK and Ireland both in the SM there are no discrepancies in standards and any accreditations for testing on one side are recognised by the other, meaning no need for additional verification at the point of crossing the border.

Of course there are also other issues with cross-border trade; notably, the above doesn't cover anything to do with provision of services. But in terms of physical crossings, those are the main points, and they are quite distinct.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#108

Post by matt4077 »

growlist wrote: post #4
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'm glad the UK is a member of the EU so we can benefit from this.

So then it IS apparently possible to have a free trade zone without freedom of movement.

Nobody ever said it wasn’t. See the famous Barnier Diagram from the very start of negotiations: https://goo.gl/images/AqyD7w

Note the Canadian flag on the far right (pun imtended). It was one of the options on offer.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#109

Post by celticninja »

Silhouette wrote: post #81
Tomte wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I guess the IRA had always had a legal obligation not to kill people. It hasn't stopped them. Maybe the view needs to be widened a bit.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. The comment by blibble that you replied to was about a question of sovereignty, and both the summary of why the ERG don't like the proposed WA and the likely consequences of that seem reasonably accurate to me. You seem to have introduced first the GFA and then the IRA into the discussion, but without explaining why they were relevant to the ori…

Are you from the UK? The point is that between the UK and Ireland there is a CTA, common travel agreement. This means frictionless border crossing between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. This was straightforward when both were EU members as the border didn't need to be policed for transfer of goods. If the UK leaves the EU then goods from the UK cannot just be moved into the Republic of Ireland if there is no join customs agreement. So now you have to introduce a hard border with the RoI which goes against the Good Friday Agreement. If you don't understand the relevance of the GFA then you should read up further on or and the Troubles that preceded it.

Re: EU and Japan create world's biggest free trade zone

#110

Post by Reason077 »

Tomte wrote: post #54
Reason077 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"UKGov claimed that this frictionless trade technology/mechanism exists and can be made to work, but in the months (or years) couldn't actually come up with a single bit of evidence that this is actually so." The Norway-Sweden border would be one example. Just like Ireland-Northern Ireland, they are not in a customs union but allow free movement of people.

You need to distinguish freedom of movement (people) and a customs agreement (goods). Sweden and Norway are both Schengen members, so they have explicitly agreed on freedom of movement for people. That does not say anything about goods. But I don't know why such an arrangement could not work with the UK (both the UK and Norway are members of the European Economic Area) – presumably because the UK wants to leave that…

"Sweden and Norway are both Schengen members, so they have explicitly agreed on freedom of movement for people. That does not say anything about goods."

Exactly. And this is the same situation for Ireland & Northern Ireland, post-Brexit. The UK and Ireland have a Common Travel Area which guarantees the free movement of people, just like the Schengen agreement.

"they want to go it alone and not align their trade policies with the European partners?"

The UK wants to negotiate free trade with the EU, but to not be a member of the customs union. The advantage of this is that it allows the UK to make its own trade agreements with other third countries.

The main UK opposition party (Labour), however, does want the UK to remain a member of the customs union.

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