H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads • Hacker News Board

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#291

Post by danmaz74 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

comesee wrote: post #204

geofft wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, protectionism. If a billion people in India and a billion people in China are competing in global markets, my country's culture isn't going to survive anyway. How is Ottoman culture doing these days? Honestly, how is the British culture of even a century ago doing these days? How long did the Japanese culture so carefully preserved survive Matthew Perry's arrival? (Also as it happens I'm an American-born child…

You're a superficial carrier of American culture. Sure you speak English and consume American media, but you have socialist values which are not American. This is the land of the free, not the land of government-enforced equity and insanely high marginal taxes for the rich. Let me guess, you're anti 2nd amendment? If there were more people who thought like you in America, the country would indeed collapse in on itsel…

The op talked about the free market always winning, and you accuse him of being a socialist?

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#292

Post by williesleg » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:34 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #226

America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. There are 4x as many geniuses in China as in the US. This is not because they are superior genetically. This is simply because the population of China is 4x that of USA. If one in 1,000,000 people are geniuses, then China must have 4x more…

That's fake news. India and China have been screwed up for centuries. Their culture breeds it. The smartest Indian programmers still just do the needful. I've seen lots of projects ruined by their basic values being so out of sync with the western world.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#293

Post by petilon » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #290

petilon wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a saying, that if an Indian becomes a manager, soon all his department becomes Indians, which really stands out among all other races. That's nonsense. Indians aren't one race. Indians are multiracial themselves. There are dark-skinned Indians that are mistaken for African American, and there are light skinned Indians that are mistaken for Italian Americans. The states of India are like countries of Europe…

How do your observations refute the original proposition? Race is a problematic concept, but that doesn't mean it can mean anything you want it to mean. If someone had made a similar observation e.g. about American managers in Europe, would an objection to the effect that "America has multiple races!" mean anything?

I corrected a factual error, but I am not refuting or supporting the rest of your claims. But I will note that you are complaining about people who you perceive to be your competitors. You inherently have diminished credibility because of that.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#294

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #255

rbanffy wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Revamping the O1 visa makes more sense for that case. Canada has a pretty sane skilled worker visa program that gives you points for academic achievement, proficiency in English, French, age and other factors. I see no reason the US couldn't have that. Having said that, factors that would increase the wish to move to the US would be things like universal healthcare, a sane schooling system (with less inequality bet…

>Without that, I don't think it's that much attractive. Given that salaries can be something like 5x what you get in Europe for the same experience level with lower taxes there is a big reason. Probably even more compared to places outside of Europe. If you're working at a large tech company making good money then healthcare doesn't matter (since you got solid medical insurance), school district doesn't matter (since…

These are all things that don't matter to me - I was always under some sort of health insurance since before the day I was born and never seriously contemplated needing social security systems. Still, living in a society where everyone can enjoy that makes for a better living experience.

Earning 5x what I would earn (which is not what I observe on my compensation level) does not compensate for knowing there are people who were driven out of their homes and now live in tent cities because I could pay more. In fact, I would not want to live in a society that encourages that and, most definitely, don't want to raise my kids to think that's normal, or desirable.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#295

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:43 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #234

rbanffy wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> go back to where they came from That's not really a nice thing to say.

It’s been said to me plenty. I don’t mind it :)

I would mind having the place I came from called a "shit hole".

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#296

Post by geofft » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

gedy wrote: post #272

geofft wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I've been saying in this thread, existing citizens are going to lose out anyway. The labor market is global. There is no way to have the government interfere in the free market to preserve jobs for certain people of certain backgrounds, and not have it backfire. It is already backfiring, in many industries. So if you care about not making existing citizens lose out—which I do!—find a solution other than protecti…

> The labor market is global. Not for all countries! Definitely an imbalance there, and US is already pretty generous with immigration numbers. We've also seen that cheap labor does not reduce cost of living in developed countries, so importing foreign cheap labor is a loss for not-rich folks.

That's not what I mean—what I mean is that labor is in the service of products and services, and the market for products and services is overwhelmingly global. You can get software from anywhere. You can get PCBs from anywhere. You can get oil from anywhere. You can get clothes from anywhere. You can get cars from anywhere. You can get produce from almost anywhere. (Prepared food is hard, as are a few other things like haircuts, but my argument is those are the minority.) Soon you'll be able to get truck drivers from anywhere with remote oversight of self-driving cars.

So if you're in any of these fields, you're competing with people around the world. You're not competing directly—the playing field is still quite bumpy—but it's becoming more level.

So if the actual goal you have is "I want citizens to not starve and be homeless," which is certainly my goal, protectionism is a temporary patch holding back a storm. One day it will stop working. Better to prepare for that day instead of denying it.

(Unless you plan on dying before then and don't care about your kids' future, but I assume all the people in this thread saying "culture" care about that....)

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#297

Post by analog31 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:47 PM UTC

petilon wrote: post #226

America is the most powerful nation in the world today not because it has the most number of people, but because it has the best and the brightest, gathered from around the world. There are 4x as many geniuses in China as in the US. This is not because they are superior genetically. This is simply because the population of China is 4x that of USA. If one in 1,000,000 people are geniuses, then China must have 4x more…

I agree, with one tiny quibble. My emphasis would not be about gathering people per se, but about educating them. OF course, tolerance of immigrants is key to keeping our doors open for students from overseas. Our higher education system, embattled as it is, remains the envy of the world.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#298

Post by dominotw » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

an_cap wrote: post #104

mykowebhn wrote: post #8

Granted that H-1B visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified American citizens or permanent residents, but in all honesty are the Department of Labor's allegations really that surprising? In the Bay Area, qualified job candidates are so scarce that it's quite common for citizens/permanent-residents to change jobs frequently. H1-B candidates are attractive for companie…

Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of your skin color at birth but okay to discriminate on the basis of which side of a border you were born in? Surely, there would a lot of outrage in HN if someone said - "Granted that H1-Black visas should ostensibly be filled only for positions where it is difficult to find qualified whites"?

> Why is it not okay to discriminate on the basis of your skin color at birth but okay to discriminate on the basis of which side of a border you were born in?

Same reason you take care of your own kids first. Would that imply that you are discriminating against kids that aren't yours?

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#299

Post by ramraj07 » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #135

yholio wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like such a simple issue to fix: the only condition for getting a specialist visa should be to find an employer willing to pay a specialist salary, say above 150K. Doctors included, I see no reason to protect them from competition. Hop jobs at will but need to maintain within 85% of that level. If a company can't find workers, it should pay more up until a level that puts the competitiveness of the economy unde…

When I was on an h1b, I was making around 60k in the middle of the country, working for an amazing startup where we were ramen profitable. My skill set was highly specialized for the job. However, I couldn’t be a founder due to my visa status and we couldn’t pay each other even basic salaries. But we did some pretty amazing stuff for DARPA, DOD, and eventually some commercial enterprises. You would price out people l…

Wow finally someone thinking similarly. Never understood why people think the US owes immigrants (especially skilled ones) anything. If you are truly bright and gifted of course you can make a living in any country! On several occasions I've had my future immigration path clouded and people have always asked me "gosh I bet it's frustrating" but I'm like "not really". I do like the US and would love to continue being here but hey it's your country your rules do whatever. Im sure I'll be just fine in another nation too.

Re: H-1B: Oracle favored hiring foreign graduates of US colleges over American grads

#300

Post by screye » Sat, Jan 26, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

namelezz wrote: post #289

screye wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just saying, this isn't quite relevant to CS. This was a hairdresser with a business. So, the Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated. It is disingenuous to extrapolate that to H1Bs. Secondly, this happened in Canada where Sikh/Punjabi immigration was not skill based, but rather fueled by mostly uneducated people looking for a better life. This is completely in contrast to the H1B which is a skill b…

> Indian person in charge was most likely not well educated Here are some educated managers in US tech companies - [0] 0 - https://www.teamblind.com/article/Do-all-Indian-managers-suc...

I haven't seen Blind take on overall positive stance on anyone ever. The complete anonymity of every poster invites hate, this likes of which I have only seen on 4chan. That being said, there are a decent number of accounts which go both ways.

Being a manager usually takes English proficiency, so Chinese managers in western companies are not as common. Given the racial breakdown of people in software, that leaves most people with either an Indian or white manager.

However, people never generalize white people culturally, because it is well understood that their color doesn't say much about how they are culturally or ideologically wired.

Similarly 'south asians' as a racial group are pretty culturally and socio-economically diverse. So generalizing such a huge subgroup is not very helpful. People differ in key ideologies of how to go about things as you cross state, religious, developmental lines in south Asia.

That being said, I can hypothesize why certain Indians may display traits that are considered undesirable among managers. But that write up must wait for another day.