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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#381
post #356
post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Borrowing handicap permit is already illegal, and AFAIR carries pretty hefty fine. Of course, enforcing it is hard - would you demand a spot physical endurance exam from everybody parking in a handicapped place? How would you even know? I used the temporary handicapped placard once for a while, when I broke my leg. When recovering, on some days, I could walk for a bit. On others, I could only walk with crutches and f…

It would be reasonable to spot-check driver's license (which they necessarily have for driving said vehicle). Should be easy enough to verify against the handicap permit.

If I was handicapped and people started gestapo'ing me to make sure I am who I am....

man sometimes you just have to let externalities happen in the name of not screwing over the 99% of people who do it by the book

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "already in place". While it's certainly true that smog isn't anywhere near the problem it once was, it's still a problem, and others still pay for the consequences of automobile emissions. Some quotes from various sources: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-air-pollution-repo... - "Los Angeles remains the nation's leader in harmful ozone pollution from car tailpipes emissions ... but the report said t…

Fair enough. In those jurisdictions that still have problems, perhaps regulations requiring hybrid and/or plug-in hybrid vehicles make sense. This can't be done at a national level because the benefit of these vehicles falls off dramatically in areas that experience temperature extremes, making them hardly any better than traditional cars. I drive a PHEV in Michigan, and for around 6-8 months a year, its mileage isn'…

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#383

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I came here to say that largely excluding cars from city centers, along with a lot of other walkability/pro-socialization/human-scale-architecture changes is probably critical to reviving vibrant cities as they used to exist. Probably even better because there wouldn't be the problem of all the horse-poop. I genuinely think that this is the key to a new golden age of cities.

So, on largely removing cars from cities, I'm with you.

But seeing this top post about totally banning cars is absurd, even at the $1/mile proposal, and I'm all for radical steps to reduce climate change. You may have a zero mile telecommute, but most people have to move to where they work. Outside of the cities, a bike isn't even practical. I have a 25mi commute to my office, my spouse 35mi in the opposite direction. I even looked into a motorcycle for it's better mileage and smaller carbon footprint, but rejected it for too dangerous (& I've won championships in DH ski racing and sportscar racing). And I'm not even that rural -- others have longer daily commutes.

Unless you've got another system that can transport this scale of people to this scale of locations, your proposal just sounds like an out-of-touch elitest. The key point here is both the last mile problem, and the centralized maintenance problem. Look at the massive commuter transport systems of Boston and NY areas. They are a rolling disaster, almost terminally unreliable, and yet most of the riders still need cars to get to the train station. The build-out to get everyone withing a mile walk of a train station would be insane, even if eminent domain weren't an issue.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#384

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I dont. cars are freedom, especially in the wide spaces of the United States. Sure its crappy commuting for 1-2 hours in traffic in the city but thats because you guys all work in one place and live in another. Public transportation can be shut down but a jeep can go anywhere.

Pretty much this. Limiting cars in metro areas can make sense but it makes zero sense in the rest of the country. If it does happen it will turn into another contentious rural vs urban subject similar to gun rights.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#385
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is ignoring the fact that the only reason that population structure exists is because of auto dependence. Train lines worked before, they would work again, if people lived more reasonably close to each other so last mile wasn't such an issue.

This sums up most of the issues raised in this thread. Its not expected that everyone walk 40km to the shopping centre. Its expected that you don't go to a shopping centre that's 40km away and instead live close to what is important and shop locally.

And how do you propose to relocate all of these people to live in that urban paradise of yours, where they walk to anything and everything? Are you even going to ask them if they want to? Not everybody wants to live in a big city and values the same conveniences as you do.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#386
post #308

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

Hello fellow SF resident. Sounds like you have much experience walking our fair streets. Do you enjoy the strolls across our fecal matter smeared pavement, littered with heroine needles and adorned by snoozing outdoor denizens, who have been known to physically assault pedestrians from time to time?

You live in a city, San Francisco is safe compared to most cities.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#387
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the city not put road grit onto the bike paths in Oslo? They certainly do in Munich.

Road grid does little when there's several cm of snow on top of the ice. It's a very slippery combination. During winter the sidewalks rarely get the snow removed. So unless there's dedicated bike lanes, which there are still rather few of, you'd have to bike in the middle of the road. Which, due to the topography, would mostly mean holding up the traffic big time. Here are some news articles from last winter which c…

Yes, the difference seems to be that Munich has lots of bike paths.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a mid-sized city in Michigan (Grand Rapids). Housing in the inner city is relatively expensive (3x+ the cost of the housing 20 miles out). Congestion is not really a thing ... maybe for 1/2 an hour right at 5PM and for 1/2 an hour in the morning. Parking is solved by having cheap lots at the fringes of the city center and providing a shuttle in (parking in the city center is only for higher income folks). A…

> Affordable point-to-point transit enables lower income folks to have nice houses and work jobs in the city, all while still having enough time left over for cooking & hanging out with family. And you do that on the backs of those who live in denser communities.

How so? Seems like they should be able to move to a smaller city and live in an area that doesn't have capacity roadway capacity problems as well...

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#389
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, only the rich should be able to drive!

That is the net effect, yes. Although honestly, $1/mile isn't that unfeasible for many people. Many people pay close to that already, so it wouldn't be like making 10x as expensive or something.

Must be nice living in that SV bubble.

How about we make it income-tested, and charge everyone who supports that idea, say, $10/mile and up? Even if you want to go on a road trip in a rental. Or get your kid to a hospital. At least that would be fair to people who actually work for a living, need to get places, and can't afford to live near transit because it has all been bid up through the stratosphere by techbros who can afford hiring ubers, muncheries, wags to do all the tedious jobs for them while they nonchalantly drive their electric scooters through what once used to be livable cities populated by different groups of people and complain about those uncouth nasty people who dared to drive their rusty beaters 50 miles to clean and cook and do all that menial work them for polluting "their" air.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#390
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road grid does little when there's several cm of snow on top of the ice. It's a very slippery combination. During winter the sidewalks rarely get the snow removed. So unless there's dedicated bike lanes, which there are still rather few of, you'd have to bike in the middle of the road. Which, due to the topography, would mostly mean holding up the traffic big time. Here are some news articles from last winter which c…

Yes, the difference seems to be that Munich has lots of bike paths.

They're building more here tho, so unless we get a shift in power next year (local elections), the situation should be much better in a few years time.

They've also said they'll focus keeping the bike roads clear during winter, currently a big issue for myself.

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