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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#221

Post by alboy »

stouset wrote: post #184
johngalt wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riding a motorcycle amongst CA drivers is taking on a significant injury risk. The efficiency gains of a motorcycle vs economy car aren't that significant and the emissions are worse.

> Riding a motorcycle amongst CA drivers is taking on a significant injury risk. More than in anywhere else? Citation needed. I ran the numbers for myself. Statistically, the amount of time I save per day by riding a motorcycle in San Francisco heavily outpaces the number of average life-minutes lost due to the risks of riding a motorcycle.

> Statistically, the amount of time I save per day by riding a motorcycle in San Francisco heavily outpaces the number of average life-minutes lost due to the risks of riding a motorcycle.

Those are the minutes spent stuck in traffic vs the minutes spent being dead. Some people might want to use a weighted model here.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#222

Post by smsm42 »

otachack wrote: post #172
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article > A few spots are left, converted into parking for disabled drivers or EV charging, and some streets are open for delivery trucks for a couple of hours in the morning. Emergency vehicles still have access. Nobody who has thought about this issue for a bit is suggesting that we ban cars like we banned chemical weapons. Simply that the number of cars can be cut by a factor of 5-10 easily, leaving behin…

Not to mention the abuse of handicap licenses in the states. I speak to this as witnessing an acquaintance borrowing a handicap permit from a family member and using it for themselves. This kind of behavior would have to be enforced more strictly.

Borrowing handicap permit is already illegal, and AFAIR carries pretty hefty fine. Of course, enforcing it is hard - would you demand a spot physical endurance exam from everybody parking in a handicapped place? How would you even know? I used the temporary handicapped placard once for a while, when I broke my leg. When recovering, on some days, I could walk for a bit. On others, I could only walk with crutches and for a short distance. But maybe I was just faking, who knows? And of course I didn't carry my medical records with me everywhere I went. So how would you know if I'm legitimately hurt or just borrowed the placard?

If you are reluctant to harass legitimately disabled people, some amount of abuse would slip in. I think unless the abuse is so rampant that legitimate users get denied access (e.g. so many fakers are parking in handicap spots that the real ones have no spot) ignoring most of it as the inevitable price of not making lives of legitimately affected people yet harder is the right way to go.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#223

Post by sampo »

clairity wrote: post #217
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

as a multimodal traveler, i generally agree with most of the changes that oslo implemented, but let's not make cars villians. fast personal, point-to-point, at-hand, energy-dense transporation is great! and so is having grass and trees with kids and dogs playing. but there's no need to pit them against each other. so besides leaving some low capacity, slow roads above ground, let's put a few high capacity, fast roads…

> and so is having grass and trees with kids and dogs playing. but there's no need to pit them against each other.

If urban cores were allowed to be built high and dense, to accommodate all those people who prefer to live in dense urban areas, then the grass and trees and backyards of the suburbs would also fit closer to the urban core. Shorter distances even from the suburbs to the core.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#224

Post by so33 »

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

The goal of most "anti-car" (most aren't really anti-car, just anti-cars in the city) people is not just to create pedestrian zones, but also to change land-use patterns so that it doesn't feel as necessary to drive everywhere.

This is absolutely implementation-specific. American cities tried similar transit/pedestrian malls but failed. It is my belief that with good governance and infrastructure, cities can adapt to a car-free lifestyle, even in places with extreme winter.

For example, in snowy and hilly Montreal an entire underground shopping mall exists, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_City,_Montreal) allowing for transit commuters to walk around (or rather, under) the city center comfortably even in the dead of winter. Even if those commuters took their cars into the office that day, they still benefit from this infrastructure, because it potentially reduces the need for additional car trips (if you're just grabbing a quick bite to eat or a few groceries).

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#225

Post by dazc »

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

'I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough .... Like really high.'

My dad asked recently: 'I don't know how most people can afford to run cars?'

I said: 'I'll let you into a secret, they can't.'

You'll be surprised how high that cost has to be in order to force a lot of people out of their cars.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#226

Post by rhacker »

jacobr wrote: post #191
danjayh wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I'm going to argue for just the opposite: Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use (through gas and plate taxes), let users of public transit pay for the services and infrastructure they use (through ridership fees). Right now, public transit is heavily subsidized by income taxes and use taxes for cars (at least in my area). I think that if all transit users were forced to pay for their share o…

> Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use Don't forget a fee for the air and noise pollution they cause.

Reply to danjayh - thread is too large to comment nest comments anymore lol

Though, one more thing I'd tax is noise from music bumpers. Those people drive me up the f-ing wall. I challenge anyone to think about how much damn awful music pollution is. Then come back in a year, after seriously considering it - if you've become the crazy old guy at the end of the street waving his cane (like me), then you know it's a problem.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#227

Post by [deleted] »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #146
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

[deleted]

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#228

Post by danjayh »

graeme wrote: post #129
openbasic wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. So much this. Most supporters of anti-automobile policies think that everyone is a healthy young adult grabbing his latte on the way to his Scrum daily meeting. No responsibilities with dependents, such as children, elderly or disabled family members. No plantar fasciitis, lordosis, arthritis, etc. Grow up. Start seeing the world from the perspective of others.

My grandma never had a car in a major pedestrianized city. She lived independently until the age of 92. She took buses and walked everywhere. My other grandmother mostly walked around town. My parents have a car but mostly walk around town. Would I be right in thinking that you come from a car centric area where people don't walk and this lose their ability to get around at a younger age? Perhaps you have difficulty…

I have medical issues that are completely unrelated to lifestyle. Unfortunately, autoimmune issues often don't respond to anything but drugs with horrible side effects.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#229

Post by dr_dshiv »

I moved from Snap Diego to Amsterdam last year and loved giving up cars. We don't own or use cars anymore. I've got three kids. They bike to school, to piano lessons, etc. If it is raining, I give them rain pants. They love the freedom, I love the freedom from schlepping. I commute to work by bike then train then bike and back again. It is beautiful -- and no more traffic. I get exercise built into my day. Sucks about the rain pants.

My problem with America: low expectations. No one thinks the vision is possible. Too bad, so sad.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#230

Post by CalRobert »

jpmoyn wrote: post #138
avar wrote: post #100

We need to end socialism for cars, but I think this way of going about it is probably counterproductive. Here in Amsterdam we also have an increase in car-free zones, but one effect of that is just to increase car parking pressure in the neighborhoods of those of us who live adjacent to the center. I think the real solution is to end socialism for cars. This problem will solve itself as soon as the land being used by…

I highly doubt throwing this issue at the free market will result in less car traffic in the city.

If I were allowed to buy the parking spots on my street and build flats I would do it in an instant. Drivers get parking welfare from walking and cycling taxpayers and are blind to it. Not to mention that bearing the cost of a million dead poeple a year would affect behaviour a bit.
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