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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#171

Post by gwbas1c »

danjayh wrote: post #58
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

You really need a disabled placard. There's no shame in using it when you need it.

The parking spots aren't just for people with wheelchairs. My grandmother got one when she had to use a walker.

You deserve it!

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#172

Post by otachack »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #149
danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

From the article > A few spots are left, converted into parking for disabled drivers or EV charging, and some streets are open for delivery trucks for a couple of hours in the morning. Emergency vehicles still have access. Nobody who has thought about this issue for a bit is suggesting that we ban cars like we banned chemical weapons. Simply that the number of cars can be cut by a factor of 5-10 easily, leaving behin…

Not to mention the abuse of handicap licenses in the states. I speak to this as witnessing an acquaintance borrowing a handicap permit from a family member and using it for themselves. This kind of behavior would have to be enforced more strictly.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#173

Post by dahfizz »

graeme wrote: post #132
dahfizz wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that this anti-car sentiment only works in dense urban areas. Many millions of Americans are a 20+ minute drive from work with absolutely zero options for public transportation. > Cities existed without cars Yeah, and if you ever had to leave the city, it was a multi-day dangerous journey by horse-back to get anywhere. Again, there is an argument to reduce cars in big, dense cities. But making driving…

The train network connected every city. It was incredibly dense.

Again, more than half of Americans do not live in a city. Being able to get from one city center to another solves none of the problems that having a car solves.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#174

Post by dsfyu404ed »

benj111 wrote: post #110
themagician wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t find many real redeeming qualities. Cars allow me to get stuff. That’s about it. I hate having one now. Even when I lived in the city I hated that they were still there. I’ve spent some time in Belgium’s city center which has few to to cars, and small beach towns with few to no cars. It’s amazing. You spend a few days in an area with no cars and think to yourself, “Wow. Wow. It doesn’t have to be like that. W…

"It drives the modern economic engine" Yeah kind of what I was thinking. I suppose if you could reliably separate car a business tool from car as personal transport. I fear you'd just get everyone setting up as 'builders' and 'delivery drivers' though. I also think that outside of dense city centres you'd run into competition and economy of scale issues. If you're only now within range of one shop for x, prices are l…

>If you're only now within range of one shop for x, prices are likely to increase in short order. And that shop will have less shoppers.

This is one issue that the (usually upper middle class or better) car-free advocates completely ignore that really ticks me off. I don't want people who don't have much money to have to choose between spending that money somewhere local but overpriced and taking a bus across town to go somewhere that actually gives them a good value.

I grew up somewhere that is almost an island and when there's little competition (everyone has to choose between the same few local options) all the businesses turn into rent-seeking scumbags. I remember when we used to leave that dump to visit relatives we'd always do our shopping on the way back because the non-local supermarkets were cheaper. When I go visit my parents I still ask if they want me to bring anything from Walmart.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#175

Post by danjayh »

apendleton wrote: post #111
danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

I think it's important to recognize, though, that in many cases, heavy road users' road use is subsidized by lighter road users. Roads are expensive both in terms of construction/maintenance and land use, they're mostly not paid for by user fees anymore (gas taxes cover a relatively small share, and same for tolls), and many people benefiting from these subsidies are doing so for lifestyle choice reasons and not out…

Actually, I'm going to argue for just the opposite: Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use (through gas and plate taxes), let users of public transit pay for the services and infrastructure they use (through ridership fees). Right now, public transit is heavily subsidized by income taxes and use taxes for cars (at least in my area). I think that if all transit users were forced to pay for their share of the cost of the services they use, you would see public transit use decrease in many mid-sized cities, and potentially increase in extremely dense cities.

If you really have a desire to 'stick it to the wealthy' while still enabling all to use the roads, sell access to HOV lanes at some extremely high cost and use it to pay for improvements to the infrastructure as a whole. I honestly think that this is a much better plan than the current (ridiculous) trend of offering HOV access to hybrids and EVs, because getting people into hybrids and EVs does nothing to ease congestion, which is the purpose of HOV lanes. Charging an extremely high tax for single-occupied HOV use would provide additional money to build improved infrastructure for all users, which would achieve the HOV goal of reducing congestion and pollution (because for traditional cars, congestion = horrible MPG).

PS - hybrids and EVs don't make sense in all areas. I have a Fusion Energi which has a plug-in range of about 20 miles, and I live in Michigan. I bought it because I wanted to be able to eat lunch in my car without idling the engine (to save wear and tear), but in general, hybrids and EVs are a complete waste of time in the midwest. 1/3 of the year is spent in arctic conditions below 30 degrees, and another 1/3 of the year is spent in sweltering 85+ degree temperatures ... and in both cases, hybrids and EVs don't do notably better than gas cars (first hand experience here).

As an additional aside, until we build more nuclear plants, and/or provide infrastructure to charge EVs during the day, they are kind of pointless. Solar power is not available at night (when most people charge EVs), so the electricity ends up coming from hyrdocarbon fuels plants. The conversion and transmission losses associated with going from Thermal->Mechanical->Electrical->High Voltage->Transmit->Low Voltage->DC->battery are so high that EVs really are currently not better than gas vehicles in much of the country. In areas where the waste heat from the gasoline is used to provide cabin heat, EVs are significantly worse in terms of overall energy use (especially those that use resistive heating for cabin heat).

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#176

Post by coding123 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #143
andys627 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - the argument is against the primacy and dominance of cars, not their existence in reasonable circumstances.

Going to the extreme is a good strategy to kill any debate. I am not sure if the GP intended this but I so often hear "Want to make changes to health care/ taxes/ others? Socialism! go to Venezuela!". Debate ended.

Lol definitely agree that this thread is mostly filled with extremeness. I don't think people should be advocating the removal of all cars/vehicles on the planet until there is a reasonable way to replace their functions (how do people, goods and large-scale construction projects get around in in normal and emergency situations). Similarly I don't think providing specific car free zones in small 1 mile blocks is the same as murdering elderly and pregnant people.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#177

Post by elektronaut »

smileysteve wrote: post #120
gt40 wrote: post #43

Maybe I missed something but how do old people get around?

Old people are often capable of walking as well. Or taking transit. It's in best interests to encourage the elderly to stay fit and capable. A better question is how do disabled people get around, and how do we prevent people from becoming disabled. Obesity and lack of activity often cause disabilities more than age.

People unable to use public transit are eligible for subsidized taxi rides.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#178

Post by dbdjfjrjvebd »

gt40 wrote: post #164
themagician wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t know that they executed all old people, children and pregnant women in Venice. Looks like they are doing it now is Oslo too.

...and disabled. I bet the politicians have nice cars though.

They just spent millions of kroner on a new underground parking garage for the Parliament...

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#179

Post by mikepurvis »

tyfon wrote: post #113
mikepurvis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typically the suggested solution in these cases is parking at a commuter rail lot somewhere out of town and then taking the train in. Obviously that requires restraint and forward-planning in terms of how much stuff you can bring, but should be doable in most cases.

Yes it is possible, but instead of 30 minutes each way by car it takes 1.5 - 2 hours each way depending on how well the different transportation systems correspond. With a three year old and a seven year old it's not so easy.

Totally appreciate that— I have kids myself in the same age range, and we've taken lots of trips together by bus, subway, and regional rail, so I do hear where you're coming from. At the same time, the road access and parking facilities that you need to exist at your destination in order to be able to drive door to door do have real costs, and those costs aren't borne by the person who drives in a few times a year to visit.

I suspect that there is probably a sliding scale of mechanisms by which you could trade money and time/convenience back and forth on this trip— for example, paying more to park closer in to the city (shorter transit trip) or transferring to a cab and paying the cab (instead of transit) to get between your parking spot and destination. You haven't previously had to consider these options because the default one was so obviously the cheapest and most convenient; maybe that's part of the value of cities drawing a hard line on this, that now everyone who previously just drove by default now really has to consider alternatives.

Anyway, I really do respect Oslo and other cities for giving this a try— despite the inconvenience to people in your situation, it'll be neat to see more of what else comes of it.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#180

Post by bytematic »

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

One of Madison Wi main streets is no-car and it's amazing, a great boon to the cities business in that area.
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