Oslo made its city center basically car-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#111

Post by apendleton » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #58

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

I think it's important to recognize, though, that in many cases, heavy road users' road use is subsidized by lighter road users. Roads are expensive both in terms of construction/maintenance and land use, they're mostly not paid for by user fees anymore (gas taxes cover a relatively small share, and same for tolls), and many people benefiting from these subsidies are doing so for lifestyle choice reasons and not out of necessity -- like, they're choosing to live in a rural area far away from infrastructure and then expecting government to build and maintain low-traffic roads to provide them access, or they're choosing to live in an exurb and commute an hour every day, or whatever.

Yours is not that case. You have a medical need, as do many people. But it's still reasonable to move away from the mentality that's common in the US of viewing road use and car use as a human right, and towards one that's about explicitly opting into or out of trade-offs about how best to make use of limited road space and government funds. Specifically: if we're going to subsidize road use, should we subsidize all of it, and if so, all of it at the same rate? I think you make a good case for why people with mobility restrictions should have access to such a subsidy, but I don't think it follows that because they should, everyone should. Maybe people who are able to take the bus or walk should have incentives to do so, or disincentives to not do so.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#112

Post by munk-a » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #97

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

The problem is that this anti-car sentiment only works in dense urban areas. Many millions of Americans are a 20+ minute drive from work with absolutely zero options for public transportation. > Cities existed without cars Yeah, and if you ever had to leave the city, it was a multi-day dangerous journey by horse-back to get anywhere. Again, there is an argument to reduce cars in big, dense cities. But making driving…

I am fully in the hate-cars bandwagon and I don't drive myself, but I have no objection to any sorts of park-n-ride style solutions. Cars are very time-efficient for long journies and they aren't terribly fuel-inefficient for those long journies considering how much infrastructure investment would be needed to establish good rail service, but within a city cars are silly.

I've always wanted to establish high tolls on entering dense urban areas, you can leave all the roads as-is but introduce a high tax on driving that last mile and supply free busing to compensate, some rich dudes will still drive everywhere but after a few years of high tolls you could probably ban cars outright with good public support.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#113

Post by tyfon » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #24

tyfon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transportation is indeed good, I didn't have a car when I lived there. Now I live in the countryside so I have a Toyota. But as someone who lives outside of Oslo it is hell visiting my friends that still live there if I want to bring my children and need to use the car. It's also almost impossible to bike around in the winter as the snow clearing efforts are not really up to standards anymore. While I support…

Typically the suggested solution in these cases is parking at a commuter rail lot somewhere out of town and then taking the train in. Obviously that requires restraint and forward-planning in terms of how much stuff you can bring, but should be doable in most cases.

Yes it is possible, but instead of 30 minutes each way by car it takes 1.5 - 2 hours each way depending on how well the different transportation systems correspond.

With a three year old and a seven year old it's not so easy.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#114

Post by dibujante » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

openbasic wrote: post #90

themagician wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe it or not, there were old and pregnant people before cars! We even had cities before cars! Venice even had old people, pregnant people, and children! The trifecta. Rumor has it these people still roam Venice today, although in smaller numbers.

Before cars life expectancy was between 30 and 40 years of age. And before cars, disabled people were put into institutions for the rest of their lives. I mean, if you want to ignore the benefits that modern technology brought to people that face challenges much bigger than the ones you face, fine. But one day you'll be in their shoes.

Life expectancy was not 40 years. People who did not die in childhood generally lived to their 70s.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#115

Post by detaro » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:31 PM UTC

openbasic wrote: post #84

danjayh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

This. So much this. Most supporters of anti-automobile policies think that everyone is a healthy young adult grabbing his latte on the way to his Scrum daily meeting. No responsibilities with dependents, such as children, elderly or disabled family members. No plantar fasciitis, lordosis, arthritis, etc. Grow up. Start seeing the world from the perspective of others.

That doesn't match the people advocating for less cars around me at all. Children and elderly are massive users of good public transport networks, where they exist, because they can't or don't want to use cars if it can be avoided. (And places where cars are absolutely not an option are very rare, so less cars can often benefit people who absolutely need cars)

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#116

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #37

chrisseaton wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All (or most) European City centers are car free. I don't know how someone can say something so obviously and demonstrably false with a straight face.

Easy. I write based on what I've observed.

Which European city centres are car free?

Let's just think about capitals. London? Brussels? Paris? Berlin? Dublin? Lisbon? Bern? Rome?

None of these places are car free. You can go on Google maps and see cars everywhere. So we know 'all' is nonsense for a start. And 'most' is looking pretty doubtful already.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#117

Post by danielvf » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

calcifer wrote: post #93

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids. Here in the Netherlands people seem to have no problems doing exactly that on a bike. Is Oslo any significantly different than, say, Amsterdam? Last week we had all sorts of harsh whether (sub-zero temps, heavy rain, snow) during my morning commute, which didn't seem to affect bike traffic one bit. > Parents in Norway also spend a lot…

In winter Oslo averages 10C lower high temperatures and an hour and half less sunlight than Amsterdam. Oslo is also less dense, and spread around both sides of a fjord.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#118

Post by kolinko » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

calcifer wrote: post #93

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids. Here in the Netherlands people seem to have no problems doing exactly that on a bike. Is Oslo any significantly different than, say, Amsterdam? Last week we had all sorts of harsh whether (sub-zero temps, heavy rain, snow) during my morning commute, which didn't seem to affect bike traffic one bit. > Parents in Norway also spend a lot…

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=temperatures+in+oslo+v...

Oslo is 5 deg celsius colder in winter than Amsterdam. You sometimes have sub-0, for them it's a norm.

There is a big difference between 5C-10C and 0C (a Warsaw-native here, which is closer in terms of temperatures to Oslo)

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#119

Post by avar » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

calcifer wrote: post #93

Kjeldahl wrote: post #30

What the PR piece doesn't show is that during winter (4-6 months a year), very few ride bicycles around. In winter most people don't stay outside a lot, the weather is harsh (people do ski, but not inside the cities). They have installed play and outside work areas, which are mostly empty during winter, and require maintenance to get them in shape again for the next summer. A lot of shops are moving or closing down.…

> It doesn't look quite as good with 5-6 shopping bags with groceries for the kids. Here in the Netherlands people seem to have no problems doing exactly that on a bike. Is Oslo any significantly different than, say, Amsterdam? Last week we had all sorts of harsh whether (sub-zero temps, heavy rain, snow) during my morning commute, which didn't seem to affect bike traffic one bit. > Parents in Norway also spend a lot…

I also live in Amsterdam, and while I bike to work every day my wife isn't as confident in the snow and when it snowed this past week took the tram.

On that day two full trams passed her stop before she was able to get on one. Something that otherwise never happens in the city.

So I think you've got a very different impression of how Amsterdammers stop cycling when there's a bit of snow. My own impression is that there's at least a 10x difference in the number of cyclists the day after some snow at rush hour compared to the same time of day on a weekday in the summer months when you can bike to work in a T-shirt.

Also, as someone from further up north than Oslo you may not be appreciating the logistical difference in cycling in the sort of snow they get up there v.s. what you get in Amsterdam. Most of the time when it snows in Amsterdam you've got 2-3 cm at most, no icing, and major cycle paths clear up down to the asphalt on at least the center-line by 8:30 at the latest.

None of which means you need a car. I cycled to work year round to work when I lived in Iceland, but it's definitely a very different challenge. You need studded tires, a mountain bike etc.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#120

Post by smileysteve » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 7:33 PM UTC

gt40 wrote: post #43

Maybe I missed something but how do old people get around?

Old people are often capable of walking as well. Or taking transit. It's in best interests to encourage the elderly to stay fit and capable.

A better question is how do disabled people get around, and how do we prevent people from becoming disabled.

Obesity and lack of activity often cause disabilities more than age.