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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#351

Post by tom-_- »

asavadatti wrote: post #310
tom-_- wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello fellow SF resident. Sounds like you have much experience walking our fair streets. Do you enjoy the strolls across our fecal matter smeared pavement, littered with heroine needles and adorned by snoozing outdoor denizens, who have been known to physically assault pedestrians from time to time?

Your argument is disingenuous. Homelessness is a different issue and should be dealt with separately.

I never argued that they should be resolved together and there's nothing disingenuous about it. Health and safety are genuine concerns for pedestrians and my point was to illustrate that they are obstacles besides cars to a city's walkability.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#352

Post by hk__2 »

iRobbery wrote: post #106
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

"Cities existed before without cars" Without engine powered vehicles yes, though man power and horse powered (with the loads of poop that come from the animals) were there though.. (unrelated note, personally, imho, i dislike horses more then cars)

> Without engine powered vehicles yes, though man power and horse powered (with the loads of poop that come from the animals) were there though

That’s not true. The electrical subway predates the personal car by a couple decades. Paris, France, and its suburb had 108 (electric) tramway lines in 1900. Autobuses were all over the place when the first “modern” cars first appeared in the city.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#353

Post by benkb8 »

dahfizz wrote: post #97
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

The problem is that this anti-car sentiment only works in dense urban areas. Many millions of Americans are a 20+ minute drive from work with absolutely zero options for public transportation. > Cities existed without cars Yeah, and if you ever had to leave the city, it was a multi-day dangerous journey by horse-back to get anywhere. Again, there is an argument to reduce cars in big, dense cities. But making driving…

Isn't there a chicken-and-egg problem especially in US cities? The typical low-density suburban sprawl in american urban areas was "fueled" by the car/oil and housing industry in a much larger scale then in other similar developed countries. This lifestyle was nothing less then the american dream - no? In the same time the economy and the urban centers are expanding and everything is built around the autombile lifestyle. So yes, today it wouldn't be possible to simply scratch the car out of the equation, simply because it's heart and center of the urban america. But without the onesided accent on individual motor car traffic, america would probably have a different landscape that made public transport much more cheaper and convenient.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#354

Post by TulliusCicero »

clairity wrote: post #284
BrianHenryIE wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but let's not make cars villians. "Over half of all vehicle trips are between 1 and 10 miles." [1] ~35,000 people die on American roads each year. [2] Let's call a spade a spade. Cars are the villains. The over-reliance on your fast, personal, point-to-point convenience is killing too many people. [1] https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/pubs/pl08021/fig4... [2] https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

no, poor decision making is what kills people. cars are incidental to that (plenty of other machinery are involved in deaths as well). if you want to reduce vehicle deaths (which have already been steadily declining) make getting a license much harder (e.g., demonstrate true defensive driving skills like both braking and accelerating out of trouble) and develop & enforce better safety laws (i.e., not some proxy like…

> no, poor decision making is what kills people.

It's both. It's way harder to kill yourself or someone else if you and everyone around you is biking, and if they're just walking it's close to impossible.

Driving generates danger. Period. Sometimes that danger is worth it, but let's not pretend that it's not currently vastly more dangerous for others than other forms of transportation.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#355

Post by elcomet »

danjayh wrote: post #338
danjayh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think public transit would only be viable in dense urban cores. In other areas, if the city desires to provide transportation assistance, I think it's probably more efficient to provide other forms of transportation to the working poor (who are typically the primary users of public transit in midsized cities). Here in Grand Rapids, the busses are so lightly used that it would probably be cheaper for the city to han…

Can one of the people downvoting this into oblivion please explain? If a midsized city with little congestion could provide subsidized point-to-point transit for those who need it at a comparable cost to operating a bus system, what is the possible downside? This would be hugely beneficial to the people actually using the service, since they get all the time back that would have otherwise been spent waiting on transi…

Don't you think this is relying a bit too much on private corporation like Uber and Lyft? What if they shut down, or leave the city? How long would it take to reorganize public transport?

Also, uber and Lyft would get to decide the prices, that could cost much more to the city.

I think a public transport has to be public, ie publicly owned.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#356

Post by mLuby »

smsm42 wrote: post #222
otachack wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the abuse of handicap licenses in the states. I speak to this as witnessing an acquaintance borrowing a handicap permit from a family member and using it for themselves. This kind of behavior would have to be enforced more strictly.

Borrowing handicap permit is already illegal, and AFAIR carries pretty hefty fine. Of course, enforcing it is hard - would you demand a spot physical endurance exam from everybody parking in a handicapped place? How would you even know? I used the temporary handicapped placard once for a while, when I broke my leg. When recovering, on some days, I could walk for a bit. On others, I could only walk with crutches and f…

It would be reasonable to spot-check driver's license (which they necessarily have for driving said vehicle). Should be easy enough to verify against the handicap permit.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#357

Post by inferiorhuman »

danjayh wrote: post #157
leesec wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever lived any where that's not a major city in the US? It is common here in Michigan to drive 20 miles to work.

I live in a mid-sized city in Michigan (Grand Rapids). Housing in the inner city is relatively expensive (3x+ the cost of the housing 20 miles out). Congestion is not really a thing ... maybe for 1/2 an hour right at 5PM and for 1/2 an hour in the morning. Parking is solved by having cheap lots at the fringes of the city center and providing a shuttle in (parking in the city center is only for higher income folks). A…

> Affordable point-to-point transit enables lower income folks to have nice houses and work jobs in the city, all while still having enough time left over for cooking & hanging out with family.

And you do that on the backs of those who live in denser communities.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#358

Post by asciimov »

themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I live in Texas. My family lives 300 miles away, in Texas, and my last grandparent lives a further 200 miles in the same direction (also in Texas).

The two lane highways I take are the only way I would be able to see my family. Passenger trains and airplanes don't go to those places. A bus could get me there, after taking a grand tour of some of the other metro areas in the state.

For those of us out here, traveling the two lane blacktop in a gas powered vehicle is the only way we can live or survive.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#359

Post by thebokehwokeh2 »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #146
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

If motorcycles were safer, I would agree with you. A fender bender or flat tire in a car is one thing. The same thing in a motorcycle is almost certainly either fatal, traumatic, or life-altering levels debilitating.

They don't call motorcyclists donors for nothing.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#360

Post by ecshafer »

asciimov wrote: post #358
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I live in Texas. My family lives 300 miles away, in Texas, and my last grandparent lives a further 200 miles in the same direction (also in Texas). The two lane highways I take are the only way I would be able to see my family. Passenger trains and airplanes don't go to those places. A bus could get me there, after taking a grand tour of some of the other metro areas in the state. For those of us out here, traveling…

But this is ignoring the fact that the only reason that population structure exists is because of auto dependence. Train lines worked before, they would work again, if people lived more reasonably close to each other so last mile wasn't such an issue.
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