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Oslo made its city center basically car-free

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Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#181

Post by gamegoblin »

danjayh wrote: post #58
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

I'm amazed that so many people who consider themselves inclusive in their thoughts don't realize how exclusionary anti-automobile policies are. As someone who suffers from mild arthritis, the trip to the back of a Wal-Mart can be painful for me, and a walk or bike ride across a city block absolutely foreboding. On the bad days, even standing in line at a checkout for an extended period of time can send my knees and h…

I broke my foot and ankle in several places in a rock climbing accident 1.5 years ago, and was put in a similar place to you (unable to stand for more than 20 minutes, unable to walk more than a few hundred yards, etc). This was a huge lifestyle impact to me -- before the injury, if it was less than a 30 minute walk, I almost always walked. If I wasn't in a hurry, up to 60 minutes.

What helped me a lot was getting an e-bike that I'm able to cruise around town at 20mph (32kph) in. I understand that this particular solution doesn't apply to you, since arthritis is triggered by joint movement, whereas my pain is triggered by impact on the damaged foot and ankle (and e-biking is low impact).

But this experience got me thinking a lot about small electric vehicles.

One could imagine a city center where most people walk or bike, and people with a medical permit could drive around in speed-limited, electric golf carts, which are fairly compatible with pedestrian-only areas. Perhaps the city itself would staff the golf carts with drivers who were summonable via app.

So people like us could drive to a parking garage on the outskirts of the city center, and then there would either be rentable golf carts at the garage, or golf carts able to be summoned to go into the city center.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#182

Post by dbdjfjrjvebd »

adrianN wrote: post #68
zaroth wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you don’t have children?

People in the Netherlands for example manage just fine with cargo bikes and public transport.

Holland is flat and the winters are mild. Try getting a cargo bike up a 200 climb in minus temperatures. It is not something I do every day.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#183

Post by pi-rat »

umvi wrote: post #26
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

How do you propose getting around quickly in car-free city centers? Electric scooter services? I was in NYC the other day, and it was like 1 am and we were several blocks northwest of Times' Square, it was freezing and raining and public transportation was on late night service which would have required 20+ minutes of waiting around shivering for a bus, or a long-ish walk to the nearest subway station and another lon…

Here's the best way to get around in the car free parts of Oslo: https://oslobysykkel.no/en

Other than that, there's plenty of public transportation.

And you don't even have to make the entire city center free of cars, i.e. make every 5th street available for cars (limited, like 1 open lane). As long as you can walk a couple of blocks you'll be able to grab a taxi.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#184

Post by stouset »

johngalt wrote: post #168
crowdpleaser wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

Riding a motorcycle amongst CA drivers is taking on a significant injury risk. The efficiency gains of a motorcycle vs economy car aren't that significant and the emissions are worse.

> Riding a motorcycle amongst CA drivers is taking on a significant injury risk.

More than in anywhere else? Citation needed.

I ran the numbers for myself. Statistically, the amount of time I save per day by riding a motorcycle in San Francisco heavily outpaces the number of average life-minutes lost due to the risks of riding a motorcycle.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#185

Post by unionemployee »

danjayh wrote: post #175
apendleton wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to recognize, though, that in many cases, heavy road users' road use is subsidized by lighter road users. Roads are expensive both in terms of construction/maintenance and land use, they're mostly not paid for by user fees anymore (gas taxes cover a relatively small share, and same for tolls), and many people benefiting from these subsidies are doing so for lifestyle choice reasons and not out…

Actually, I'm going to argue for just the opposite: Let users of cars pay for the infrastructure they use (through gas and plate taxes), let users of public transit pay for the services and infrastructure they use (through ridership fees). Right now, public transit is heavily subsidized by income taxes and use taxes for cars (at least in my area). I think that if all transit users were forced to pay for their share o…

How would this work when our cities have been so heavily developed to favor the automobile? I'm for road users paying for the roads or access, but public transit is so lightly used in most of the US and there's so little existing infrastructure that it's at a severe disadvantage and can't take advantage network effects or economies of scale. Instead of a train near my house, there's an interstate highway. Our cities are already so sprawling and NIMBYism so strong. I wonder if it's too late for transit.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#186

Post by dbdjfjrjvebd »

renholder wrote: post #165

>...as in other cities that have converted some streets to pedestrian-only areas... These "pedestrian-only" zones certainly aren't unique to Oslo. See Drottninggatan[0] in Stockholm, Grafton[1] in Dublin, Strøget[2] in Köpenhamn (Copenhagen), Kärntner Strasse[3] in Vienna, ad infinitum... I'm nonplussed that this is in any way news-worthy; however, it seems to be an American website, so maybe that's why? [0] - https:…

FYI the Danish would spell Copenhagen København.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#187

Post by maxxxxx »

kkhire wrote: post #159
maxxxxx wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. LA took any love I had for cars out of me. Now I just want to live somewhere quiet where I can walk to places.

do what I do: live in a walkable part of LA. I live in weho and left my car at my parent's house.

There is still the getting to work problem especially if your partner works in a different area.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#188

Post by paulddraper »

crowdpleaser wrote: post #146
themagician wrote: post #8

I want this so bad. My hatred for the automobile grows every day. The cost, the noise, the time wasted in traffic, the pollution, the ridiculous space wasted on parking. When you really add up the costs, both individual and to society, it’s absolutely insane. I wish the cost of gasoline was high enough to internalize all the costs and change behavior. Like really high. A dollar a mile. We are slaves to the automobile…

As a recent transplant to the bay area, I'm surprised so few people ride motorcycles - I know that it's not tenable for parents and people with medical conditions, but there are so many people here who could. I cut my commute time in half, I got a lightly used motorcycle + gear for less than the price of a used Prius, I get mileage that's comparable to an economy car and performance that rivals that of a performance…

I agree with you, but the reasons more people don't use motorcycles are

1. They're harder to drive.

2. They're more dangerous for the driver.

3. They're uncomfortable in rainy weather. (And even more dangerous during icy weather.)

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#189

Post by dbdjfjrjvebd »

squidbot wrote: post #18
samstave wrote: post #2

I seriously think that San Francisco can benefit from this. Each zone in SF is actually very small - and very walkable. In my extreme SF transport utopia - SF would only allow pedestrians, bikes, and electric muni transport in certain regions of the city.

The biggest issue with bikes and walking in SF (as well as Seattle) is the hills. Oslo is relatively flat, as are other very bike centered cities like Amsterdam. Mind you, the rise of electric bikes is helping a lot, but it seems like hilly cities would only be able to get rid of cars if they replaced them with better, efficient, clean public transit. And it doesn't have to be just buses. Seattle, where they exist, e…

Oslo is anything but flat.

Re: Oslo made its city center basically car-free

#190

Post by pi-rat »

themagician wrote: post #72
benj111 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hatred... is a strong word. I agree the balance is completely out of whack, but hatred? Are there really no redeeming qualities? Ps you've advocated taxing petrol, but EVs are now a thing. Pay per mile road pricing?

I don’t find many real redeeming qualities. Cars allow me to get stuff. That’s about it. I hate having one now. Even when I lived in the city I hated that they were still there. I’ve spent some time in Belgium’s city center which has few to to cars, and small beach towns with few to no cars. It’s amazing. You spend a few days in an area with no cars and think to yourself, “Wow. Wow. It doesn’t have to be like that. W…

> You spend a few days in an area with no cars and think to yourself, “Wow. Wow. It doesn’t have to be like that. What are we even doing?

This! They closed down large parts of my city during a big week-long bike event last year, including the street where I have my office. The difference was astonishing, like night and day. You could easily talk while strolling down the street. With all the road noise gone you suddenly noticed bird chatter, etc, etc. More people used the public benches on the side walks (what's the point of relaxing on a bench with noisy cars blasting past you).

Local politicians are now running a pilot project to make one city district car free, which is fantastic.

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