Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#41

Post by sixtypoundhound » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:47 PM UTC

michaelwda wrote: post #12

I think web-design in the SMB market is completely commoditized between website builders and even CSS toolkits like Bootstrap lowering the barrier to entry. I barely know CSS and will just buy a $20 design from wrapbootstrap and the client doesn't care. Anything related to web-design should be a side-effect of the true product you're selling, which in your case should be web-based software application development (IM…

You would be surprised... also don't rule out middle market companies ($50MM - $500MM in sales) in low-tech industries. Suspect these could be highly profitable clients (yet potentially infuriating, details below).

Examples from my day job:

- Transaction pricing, trade system setup, and item costing is effectively controlled by Excel VBA (written by one guy who left, and maintained by a third-string developer who moonlights from his job at another company)

- Was told we couldn't do something on our site because it was "an old WordPress site" and had to be totally rebuilt for over $50,000.

- Apparently PhotoShop is too complex for mere mortals, thus everything must be outsourced and under no circumstances should we invest in our copy and do anything in house.

Oh - and I should mention that the process owners for these areas are usually technically clueless and utterly paranoid about anyone else touching their baby. The fastest way to get anything done is to pay up for OT and let the existing insane clown posse do the additional work at overtime rates. Rates are ridiculous - my spouse and I run a digital business on the side and our equivalent total project costs are 1/10th (if that!) what these guys seem to shell out (then again, we're both ex-IT / developers, so we know how to design and buy things correctly...)

I've flown past most of this crap since I've been retained to deal with a slightly more fundamental problem (aka: Dude, Where's My Sales?)... but there's probably a lot of money sitting in these kind of messes if you do some networking.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#42

Post by honopu » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #34

jason_pomerleau wrote: post #16

There is lots of opportunity out there, but it depends on what you mean by ‘small business’. Super small companies (under 10 to 15 people in this context) are usually best off with SquareSpace or Wix. Companies slightly larger than this invariably end up wanting/needing things that these platforms can’t offer, and have the kind of budgets that can support a solo operator or small team. At this level, you are competin…

Curious - which is a more profitable relationship, the agencies or serving a mid-sized business directly? I imagine there's a longer selling cycle for the mid-sized business, offset by higher pricing? Which group is harder to serve? (eg. more iterations and drama inserted into the job vs. shaking hands, getting it done, and getting paid)

Mid size biz like the biz to biz approach. Agencies generally absorb a lot of the budget for creative directors, market research, etc and don’t leave a lot for actual development. Ideally you get in the position where you’re directly affecting income, that’s measured, by your efforts. That’s when you can charge based off of the value you’re providing, instead of an hourly rate.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#43

Post by notahacker » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

adamqureshi wrote: post #38

Ad agencies here in NYC sub-contract out work all the time. They are sick of outsourcing to 3rd world. I'd connect with ad agencies in your area see if you can get sub-contract work. And you can charge $1,500-$3k to set up a SquareSpace site. Target dentist, interior designers, yoga studios. Forget the local pizza shop as a customer. If your building with WP then offer support. WP is being updated all the time and wi…

> Forget the local pizza shop as a customer

The local pizza shop's potentially a good customer if you're selling them a way to take orders online and get people to buy their special offers and refer their friends through social media. Plenty of value in that, especially if you're yielding more proven results than those flyers they pay to have printed and delivered every couple of months. If you're selling them a homepage with a picture of a pizza and a phone number then yeah, that's what Wix etc are for.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#44

Post by jason_pomerleau » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

stefanfisk wrote: post #25

jason_pomerleau wrote: post #16

There is lots of opportunity out there, but it depends on what you mean by ‘small business’. Super small companies (under 10 to 15 people in this context) are usually best off with SquareSpace or Wix. Companies slightly larger than this invariably end up wanting/needing things that these platforms can’t offer, and have the kind of budgets that can support a solo operator or small team. At this level, you are competin…

I don't know where you're located, but the situation is about the same here in Sweden. If you know how to sell yourself and get a nice network going you can be a one man army making enough to be in the top 1% of earners nationally. But, consulting pays about the same, and since the contracts are usually for months if not a full year the situation is a lot more predictable.

Yes, if you search my comment history (not much there, I don’t generally have much to say here), you’ll find me lamenting that lack of predictability compared to my consulting friends with 1 or 2 anchor clients. But, I believe I have a more resilient business - not one of my clients represents more than ~12% of my revenue.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#45

Post by muzani » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

Generally, you don't want to compete with Squarespace, Wix, Wordpress, or Shopify. Unless your goal is to just churn out those kind of sites within a couple days. But even then, you'll probably lose out to some Indonesian who's doing it fast, cheap, and high quality.

I've found a good niche making sites with minimal login and membership features. These are far too customized for the likes of Wordpress, but can be built in just jQuery and Bootstrap, without all the overhead of a full web framework. Some examples would be sites that track individual members actions, listing sites, websites that would track their employees' performance.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#46

Post by jason_pomerleau » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #34

jason_pomerleau wrote: post #16

There is lots of opportunity out there, but it depends on what you mean by ‘small business’. Super small companies (under 10 to 15 people in this context) are usually best off with SquareSpace or Wix. Companies slightly larger than this invariably end up wanting/needing things that these platforms can’t offer, and have the kind of budgets that can support a solo operator or small team. At this level, you are competin…

Curious - which is a more profitable relationship, the agencies or serving a mid-sized business directly? I imagine there's a longer selling cycle for the mid-sized business, offset by higher pricing? Which group is harder to serve? (eg. more iterations and drama inserted into the job vs. shaking hands, getting it done, and getting paid)

Agency work is less profitable and higher hassle. They tend to want to “manage the project” and many of them do it rather poorly.

My sales cycle is very short. I usually close the sale in the first meeting - or walk away knowing that a PO is imminent. Or I finish that meeting knowing that there’s no real opportunity there. Over many years I’ve developed a pretty good instinct of what is an opportunity and what isn’t, and where there’s a good fit and isn’t. Wish I could be more prescriptive, but it seems to be one of my magic powers.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#47

Post by sixtypoundhound » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

honopu wrote: post #42

sixtypoundhound wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious - which is a more profitable relationship, the agencies or serving a mid-sized business directly? I imagine there's a longer selling cycle for the mid-sized business, offset by higher pricing? Which group is harder to serve? (eg. more iterations and drama inserted into the job vs. shaking hands, getting it done, and getting paid)

Mid size biz like the biz to biz approach. Agencies generally absorb a lot of the budget for creative directors, market research, etc and don’t leave a lot for actual development. Ideally you get in the position where you’re directly affecting income, that’s measured, by your efforts. That’s when you can charge based off of the value you’re providing, instead of an hourly rate.

I think a lot of mid-market web agencies suffer from this issue (going to one of my favorite patio11 articles): https://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/01/28/why-you-shouldnt-pay-an...

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#48

Post by jason_pomerleau » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

wastedhours wrote: post #30

jason_pomerleau wrote: post #16

There is lots of opportunity out there, but it depends on what you mean by ‘small business’. Super small companies (under 10 to 15 people in this context) are usually best off with SquareSpace or Wix. Companies slightly larger than this invariably end up wanting/needing things that these platforms can’t offer, and have the kind of budgets that can support a solo operator or small team. At this level, you are competin…

> I turned away another 50k of opportunities that didn’t feel like a good fit. Interested in how you off-board those opportunities? Do you have a referral network who'll take on the lower-end prospects, or just offer them some guidance?

Depends on the opportunity. Sometimes I’ll refer them my competitors, or an agency if I think their needs are beyond what a solo operator can deliver.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#49

Post by nickjj » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 3:03 PM UTC

Yes, but you need to shift your focus to using those platforms (when it makes sense) and also look into adding value in other places of their business.

For example if someone wants a store set up, you probably don't want to ask them to pony up for a custom $20,000 solution. Just get them onboard with Shopify on a retainer, and if they have custom needs start programming custom Shopify apps.

You can also look into ways on how to optimize their current set up. Like introducing a way to schedule appointments in a way that removes a bunch of headache from their point of view. They might not even have thought to do anything like that because it was unknown to them.

I talked about this recently in a podcast I was on about being a freelance web developer at https://twitter.com/nickjanetakis/status/1086296676640456704.

But, long story short. Before you know it, you're not just "the web guy" to them. You're the guy they come to for answers for a lot of things related to their business.

Re: Ask HN: Is there any money in website design for small businesses anymore?

#50

Post by jason_pomerleau » Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 3:04 PM UTC

Zealotux wrote: post #20

jason_pomerleau wrote: post #16

There is lots of opportunity out there, but it depends on what you mean by ‘small business’. Super small companies (under 10 to 15 people in this context) are usually best off with SquareSpace or Wix. Companies slightly larger than this invariably end up wanting/needing things that these platforms can’t offer, and have the kind of budgets that can support a solo operator or small team. At this level, you are competin…

Impressive figures, congratulations for growing your business that much. I've always had a hard time being taken seriously when I was doing Wordpress websites, may I where do you get clients? You should share your experience in a blog, I'd love to read that kind of stuff.

100% referrals from happy clients, or people I’ve worked with in various contexts over the years. If you do great work and manage clients properly, word gets around. A client with 20 staff - in a year, 2 or 3 of those people will be working for another company. If you’ve left a good impression, over time the network effects take hold. The trick is to survive long enough to reach that point :) the first couple of years were tough.