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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

This is really curious. Are there any systems that govern well that don’t recognize democratic principles? I’m trying to figure out how the U.K. can make decisions given that very few will have a literal majority given that there are so many non-voters (eg, babies and comatose). What is a better form of determining the will of the people than an election? In the US there is a constitution so huge changes can’t be mad…

> This is really curious. Are there any systems that govern well that don’t recognize democratic principles?

The United States has two branches of Congress to insulate the country from the whims of the mob. Pure democracy has long been derided as an anti-pattern in government.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#252

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> Where are the people who initially brought in Brexit- why are they not supporting May?

Many had radically different aspirations for Brexit, no influence on the process and/or disliked May and her government on principle. Others were part of May's Cabinet, some even directly responsible for negotiations, but couldn't deliver anything which matched their initial promises, disliked the deal that was put on the table and decided eyecatching resignation was better than compromise. One or two, like Gove and Leadsom actually are still backing May, but fairly reluctantly. Everybody agrees the deal isn't fantastic, but few are prepared to admit their alternative aspirations were pure fantasy.

The flip side is that [nearly] all the Conservative MPs who voted down May's deal will vote confidence in her government very shortly because they value staying in power and loathe the opposition parties too. Which leads nicely on to the next point...

> What is preventing the referendum from being declared stupid and that the UK gov't is not going to do it?

The same forces that protect a President that has made Nixon's actions look like model of propriety and is quietly despised many of his own party's leading figures. A mixture of partisanship, terror of defying ones own voters and party members, fear of what political upheaval might happen next and doubts over whether they actually would manage to stop things if they tried.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#253
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

Polling has pretty consistently been anti-Brexit for awhile now, once the clear scope of what Brexit entails has actually been better understood. If another referendum were held today it would fail. Why should a single non-binding vote taken at one point in time two years ago be considered forever irrevocable? Especially considering all of the pro-Brexit fake news and false promises at the time? Most of the promises…

I tend to agree with your main point, but I'd be cautious about being so certain that the referendum would fail this time based on polling. The polls generally overestimated remain last time around (see Polls of Polls, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Unit...)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#254
post #160
post #117

I loved the comparison to a submarine made of cheese: https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222230791229440?l...

>Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do. Leaving the EU is not a completely insane thing to do. The UK (and many other countries) have legitimate grievances about some things the EU is foisting on them (immigration for example) and the EU is giving them the cold shoulder and fining them if they don't comply. Labelling people who ar…

The EU isn't foisting immigration on the UK.

EU freedom of movement isn't unconditional. You can only move to a different EU country if you have a job or can support yourself.

You have three months to make it work, and then if you can't make it work, you can be asked to leave.

The UK deliberately opted out of this requirement. Until recently, the UK was one of the most generous and open states for EU immigration.

The UK also made the most noise about allowing the former Soviet Bloc countries to join the EU - coincidentally, the countries which have sourced a lot of supposedly objectionable immigration.

This is because the UK likes to play a game. First it imports cheap foreign labour to keep wages down. Then the same political group which quietly promotes this makes a big show of saying "Oh no! Look at all the immigrants! How terrible! We should do something!" in public.

And this reliably wins elections. It's been winning them for well over a century now.

You can be absolutely sure that if Brexit happens this game will be played again - most likely with cheap labour from the former commonwealth countries.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#255

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#256
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May's deal permanently blocks the UK from ever fully leaving the EU without the EU's permission, meaning that anyone who wants to leave won't support it. It also removes almost all the benefits of remaining in the EU, meaning Remain supporters hate it too. Oh, and for bonus points it effectively makes Northern Ireland no longer fully part of the UK, meaning that the DUP (the Northern Ireland unionist party which the…

The UK is a sovereign country -- how is it possible for them to never be able to do something without someone else's permission?

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Polling has pretty consistently been anti-Brexit for awhile now, once the clear scope of what Brexit entails has actually been better understood. If another referendum were held today it would fail. Why should a single non-binding vote taken at one point in time two years ago be considered forever irrevocable? Especially considering all of the pro-Brexit fake news and false promises at the time? Most of the promises…

Well the way EU is sticking it the UK would be reason enough to leave. Assuming the UK wants to remain a sovereign nation rather than an EU client.

The UK already has the best possible deal with the EU of all countries on earth, in or out. They have all of the benefits of membership, and are exempted from some of the downsides: britain controls their own borders and their own currency. The status quo is the best the UK can ever hope to get, from that position, no matter what deal you make it'll be worse than where you are. That's not the "EU sticking it to the UK", that's just reality.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#258
post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

>The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on..

I would - respectfully - point out that's not the situation.

It is (was?) a promise in the sense that the government is there to enact the will of the people. The majority of people who voted, voted to leave (personally I was in the minority).

So now (in engineering terms) it's pretty simple. If everyone sits on their hands, the UK will leave the UK as scheduled in March (and so fulfil the wish of the people).

The actuality is the unedifying spectacle of lots of shuffling, muddying of the waters and lining of pockets as anyone with skin in the game scrabbles for whatever they feel is to their own advantage.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#259
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure. I think we’ll leave or stay in the EU and it won’t make a tangible difference in the long run. Not in the way that say the internet, smartphones, antibiotics, nuclear weapons/power, quantum physics etc etc have made a difference to the world. MAD means we probably won’t have a major war any time soon, so we’ll be trading with the EU regardless, it’s all semanitics and minor politics.

The brexit issue is part of the bigger issue of the ongoing suicide of europe. Birmingham, where my father was born, is now majority non-anglosaxon, and with continued weak immigration controls europe will be majority african/arab/muslim in 50 years. There has never been an ethnic african science nobel prize winner, and despite 1.6 billion of the world's population being muslim, muslims have only won 2 nobel prizes i…

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#260

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

0. Former Prime Minister gambles on a referendum in order to crush rebellion in his own party and secure his leadership. He makes a pact of support and in return gives a referendum on Europe satisfying a small niche of party extremists.

Crucially the referendum isn’t binding which is where the problem occurs. The vote didn’t go the way people thought it would go. Maybe because of the fall out of banking crisis and rising inequality, maybe because the leave campaigns broke the law, maybe because of Russian involvement. So now you have a representative democracy that is broadly pro EU vs a popular vote which has voted “out” whatever that means. The referendum is non binding so should be advisory only to the elected officials.

Now the government is in a pickle. Because even though the vote was just advisory if they’re seen to ignore this, people will start wondering if their vote matters at all. It could be a path to chaos. This is complicated further by the split of the age of people voting leave. They tended to be older and these voters traditionally vote conservative (aka republican in US terms). So they’d be disenfranchising their base.

The government doesn’t even have a majority and is propped up by another tiny party of 10 members called the DUP. This is a little complicated but the outcome is a really weak government because it doesn’t have the numbers to push through legislation it would like.

On top of that the euro-sceptic extremists are bolstered by vote and lobbying hard for out by any means necessary. They’re effectively driving policy by threatening to terminate her fragile leadership.

All this would have been a doddle if a decent opposition was sat opposite in the commons. However in a perfect storm the opposition is absent. This is even more complicated to understand but the summary is that the hard left socialists have more in common with the hard right anti-EU lot than either of them would like to admit. It’s weird.

Mays deal satisfied no-one and it’s taken 2 years to get this far.

One interesting side effect is that more people now know what being in the EU means than ever before. It was virtually never discussed before.

I’m off to stockpile toilet roll and pain killers

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