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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#111

Post by CodeGlitch »

chillacy wrote: post #81
CodeGlitch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because democracy, whilst not perfect, is the best system we have for civilisation to continue. As someone who voted remain, I have to say that we now have to leave the EU. If Brexit was to be stopped by Parliment, the damage to UK politics would last a generation. People would simply loose faith in the system, giving rise to more extreme political parties - and we all know where that leads to. If I was in charge, I'…

Why is it the best system, and how do you even measure that? I personally like living in a constitutional democracy but the past 100 years has shown us plenty of failed democracies and successful dictatorships (Korea, Taiwan, Singapore). It seems to me that one of the downsides of democracy is promoting short term thinking. Another is that policies are only as good as the population is educated (US climate change, br…

"Another is that policies are only as good as the population is educated (US climate change, brexit)"

I do believe you just called all Brixiteers stupid? I know loads of them who are highly educated :D

Actually it was the poorer regions of the country which voted to leave - that's been explained in detail elsewhere.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#112

Post by gwbas1c »

ceejayoz wrote: post #66
vinceguidry wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit is a real problem that the human race is faced with. There can be no higher question than that of what rules people should be using to deal with each other. For most of human history the rules were imposed by force. You open your market because if you don't, I'll escalate from sending a strongly worded missive all the way up to sending my armies to pillage your countryside. Recently we've moved to a more contr…

> The EU is a phenomenally novel way of integrating sovereign nation-states into a singular political entity, that happened without war. Not just without war, but between nations that've been regularly at war with each other (in various iterations) for well over a thousand years. It's a pretty remarkable achievement.

And some EU states still don't recognize each other. Just look at the 49.999 hz issue.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#113

Post by simonbyrne »

ceejayoz wrote: post #95
jarcane wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nigel Farage is a media-created bogey man, a hack to the system of “equal time”. He isn’t actually representative of anyone, even his own useless party, as polls and election results have consistently shown.

He was an MP, is still a MEP, and cofounded a party that once commanded "major party" status and nearly 20% of the vote in 2014. He's clearly representing some folks.

He has never been an MP.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#114

Post by itissid »

simonbarker87 wrote: post #47

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it s…

> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry.

Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#115

Post by [deleted] »

Simon_says wrote: post #101
toomuchtodo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, definitely. Override uneducated decisions that harm the republic, regardless of "the will of the people" [1] [2] [3] [4]. That is exactly why republics exist versus direct democracy. “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” -- Winston Churchill (edit: supposedly Churchill did not say this; I'm keeping it, as it helps express the idea) Disclaimer: American [1] ht…

Wowzers

[deleted]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#116

Post by blibble »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #17
tunesmith wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the labor party also against revoking article 50? Corbyn at least? I thought it was only the liberal party that has been consistent in arguing for revoking it.

brexit did win a referendum, which is probably the main reason labor has been cautious, but Corbyn himself isn’t a great fan of the EU, that’s true.

> Corbyn himself isn’t a great fan of the EU

this is somewhat of an understatement

he voted against its creation, and against every single transfer of power to it

prior to being elected Labour leader he would denounce it at every possible opportunity (alongside his mentor Tony Benn)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#118

Post by natechols »

m0zg wrote: post #71

Of course it "failed". The government did everything it could to sabotage it and arrive at as unfavorable a set of exit conditions as possible. Even if she did want to get a good deal, May doesn't strike me as a cutthroat negotiator. Couple this with her unwillingness to abide by the will of the people (the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy), and you get this. This w…

What sort of "good deal" do you think May could realistically have extracted from the EU? Everything I've read has implied that the Brexit options ranged from "poor" to "apocalyptically bad".

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#119

Post by mikepurvis »

m0zg wrote: post #83
toomuchtodo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

The real issue is that the people who voted "for Brexit" were all voting for different things, because it wasn't at all articulated what "Brexit" would look like. Now that that's better understood, there should absolutely be a second referendum, probably with three ranked options:

1. Stay

2. Soft leave (May's deal)

3. Hard leave (No deal)

With months and months of nonstop coverage, one could now say that there's broad understanding of what these precise options mean (though probably not their longer-term consequences, especially of option 3).

In any case, you don't have to be "ignoring the will of the people" to go back and ask again now that there's better information.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#120

Post by roland35 »

yholio wrote: post #87
gonehome wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense. Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

That reminds me of the Despair demotivational poster "Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
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