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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#81

Post by chillacy »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #44
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #18

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Because democracy, whilst not perfect, is the best system we have for civilisation to continue. As someone who voted remain, I have to say that we now have to leave the EU. If Brexit was to be stopped by Parliment, the damage to UK politics would last a generation. People would simply loose faith in the system, giving rise to more extreme political parties - and we all know where that leads to. If I was in charge, I'…

Why is it the best system, and how do you even measure that? I personally like living in a constitutional democracy but the past 100 years has shown us plenty of failed democracies and successful dictatorships (Korea, Taiwan, Singapore).

It seems to me that one of the downsides of democracy is promoting short term thinking. Another is that policies are only as good as the population is educated (US climate change, brexit)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#82

Post by CodeGlitch »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #65
CodeGlitch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because democracy, whilst not perfect, is the best system we have for civilisation to continue. As someone who voted remain, I have to say that we now have to leave the EU. If Brexit was to be stopped by Parliment, the damage to UK politics would last a generation. People would simply loose faith in the system, giving rise to more extreme political parties - and we all know where that leads to. If I was in charge, I'…

Referendums are not democratic they are a tool employed by an incumbent to back up a position. Democracy generally requires voting for representatives that serve your best interests on issues that matter to you. It’s not about choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

Well the tories where voted into power due to the promise of giving the people a vote on EU membership... sounds democratic to me.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#83

Post by m0zg »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #76
m0zg wrote: post #71

Of course it "failed". The government did everything it could to sabotage it and arrive at as unfavorable a set of exit conditions as possible. Even if she did want to get a good deal, May doesn't strike me as a cutthroat negotiator. Couple this with her unwillingness to abide by the will of the people (the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy), and you get this. This w…

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#84

Post by blowski »

It feels like the country is roughly divided into 3 equal bits:

* Leave EU quickly, at any cost

* Don’t really mind either way, as long as economy is stable

* Stay in EU

The one in the middle doesn’t trust either of the others. So nobody can get a majority, whether we have another referendum or a general election. So this shitstorm will just go on and on.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#85

Post by toomuchtodo »

m0zg wrote: post #83
toomuchtodo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

Yes, definitely. Override uneducated decisions that harm the republic, regardless of "the will of the people" [1] [2] [3] [4]. That is exactly why republics exist versus direct democracy.

“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.” -- Winston Churchill (edit: supposedly Churchill did not say this; I'm keeping it, as it helps express the idea)

Disclaimer: American

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-majority-of-british-peo... (POLL: A majority of British people regret voting for Brexit)

[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-polls/britain-... (Britain would now vote to stay in the EU by six point margin, new poll shows)

[3] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vot... (‘I thought I’d put in a protest vote’: the people who regret voting leave)

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United... (Opinion polling for the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#86

Post by mathgenius »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #29

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Politics should be utterly boring, instead we get this endless theatrics. Politics should not be entertaining at all. Same goes for finance & banking. These jobs should be the most boring jobs in the world. Just get on with it, and forget about all the posturing and game-of-thrones crap.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#87

Post by yholio »

gonehome wrote: post #55
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

Some might say that a good outcome is one where the people can freely make their own choices and accept the consequences. The plight of the British might serve as a cautionary tale informing the decisions of some other country, that's certainly a good thing in some sense.

Democracy is not guaranteed to deliver prosperity or lead only to the correct decisions, yet it's the best system we have.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#88

Post by yayana »

jbottoms wrote: post #67

What I find curious through this whole affair is the silence on the topic by the U.S. For two countries that share a "Special Relationship" I had expected to hear the State Dept. say something. After all, major changes in governance by a close ally is bound to have secondary effects. And, please don't tell me that the Special Relationship is just a put-on show. It is set in numerous treaties between the U.S. and U.K.…

I think the US is trying to be quiet to get the UK a good deal with the EU. Suddenly lowering the EU's trade status is an example of more visible setup for what they want.. Special access to Europe through a corrupt merchant island.

I.e. how do you bypass EU regulations without a nice English speaking middle man country with near EU trade status to do a lot of dirty work?

IMO the UK will be a specialist in packaging and final assembly of US and Indian goods if they get a good deal from the EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#89

Post by DanBC »

hacker_9 wrote: post #63

To be honest this is just a repeat of two years ago, apart from now it's May not getting her way instead of Cameron. The whole thing is such a colossal failure that they need to just to give up and stop acting like this is the 'will of the people' - as if people don't change their mind when presented with the facts or something.

"Tea?"

"OK, go on."

"There's no kettle so I'm burning the house down to heat water."

"Now wait a…"

"Shut up, I've a clear mandate for tea."

https://twitter.com/LouiseJJohnson/status/829617043582369792

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#90

Post by simonbarker87 »

siquick wrote: post #60
simonbarker87 wrote: post #47

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it s…

It wasn't 52% of the country though. The voter turnout was 72% and that excludes the millions of under 18s who will be affected by this the most.

Well yeah, what’s your point?
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