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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#41

Post by yholio »

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode.

Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, which is clearly bad, is still the best thing brexiters can actually deliver. Instead, they are trying to camouflage that reality with a bad deal that keeps Britain shackled to the EU for a number of years while losing all of the (substantial) influence it had over the way EU works. That's an anti-Brexit, the exact opposite of the independence and prosperity promised by brexiters. It was a bad deal and it's good that it failed.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#42

Post by PaulRobinson »

scarmig wrote: post #9
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

Yes, but there was no chance of article 50 being revoked while May's deal was still on the table. Now it's a choice between revoking it and a hard Brexit. Which is the only way we'd ever get to a state where it might be revoked. EU courts have, IIRC, ruled that Britain can unilaterally revoke article 50, so now it's all up to elected MPs to figure out a way forward. So the fate of the UK rests on the good judgment an…

Rescinding it would require a vote of Parliament on a motion to revoke it. Such a motion is unlikely to be carried right now.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#43

Post by severino »

tunesmith wrote: post #8
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

What I don't understand (and I am very ignorant!) is why the initial vote can't just be looked at as a stage in the decision process. Time has gone on, and the public has become more educated as to what the true effects of Brexit will be. Even leaving aside the question of how dishonest the pro-Brexit arguments were. It just seems reasonable to have another vote.

And then, if this second voting yields a different result, shouldn't they hold a third referendum afterwards? And maybe a few more, as you can always say the last one was not the genuine one.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#44

Post by CodeGlitch »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #18

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Because democracy, whilst not perfect, is the best system we have for civilisation to continue.

As someone who voted remain, I have to say that we now have to leave the EU. If Brexit was to be stopped by Parliment, the damage to UK politics would last a generation. People would simply loose faith in the system, giving rise to more extreme political parties - and we all know where that leads to.

If I was in charge, I'd do a hard Brexit - use the ££ windfall from not paying into the EU as buffer until the economy recovers with new trade deals.

It's not going to be the apocalypse like some hardcore remainers describe

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#46

Post by dudul »

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #18

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Apparently more than 51% of the UK's voters thought that the UK belonging to the EU was a real problem worth solving. What's your legitimacy to belittle this concern?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#47

Post by simonbarker87 »

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry.

They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it seems to me, to be economic suicide (ask any small business owner or retailer how it’s going at the moment and they’d say the process has already started). A bad deal (like this) really did seem the best of an awful situation to me - it reflected the vote, 48/52. Half the country (probably more since a million or so people have now become old enough to vote who couldnt before) didn’t want to do this so perhaps it should be an awkward compromise that gives both sides a bit of what they want.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#48

Post by NeedMoreTea »

matte_black wrote: post #12

The UK is so close to being free from the grips of the EU. It will be tough, but it is a sacrifice they must be willing to make.

So they can "take back control" they never lost, to have an impotent government that's unable to get primary legislation through parliament, but unlikely to be voted out?

This doesn't seem to be an improvement.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#49

Post by MatekCopatek »

switch007 wrote: post #14
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. This vote is very damaging to the government's position, but as it stands there's been no move, assurance, or guarantees, to stop article 50. If article 50 is activated it starts a two year countdown as the UK slowly moves out of the EU. Even if the government loses the no confidence vote, there's still no imp…

> Just to be clear, article 50 hasn't been revoked, the UK will still leave the EU with no deal on March 30th. I don't feel you clarified anything. Do you mean if article 50 isn't revoked that the UK will leave the EU (true if nothing else happens) or that there are no circumstances under which the UK can remain in the EU?

Revoking article 50 means canceling brexit. They can still do it, but no major party currently supports it.

If they don't revoke it, they have to leave on March 30th. This can happen through some kind of deal with EU (a potential one was negotiated but shot down by todays vote) or without any deal.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#50

Post by shmerl »

MatekCopatek wrote: post #32
shmerl wrote: post #4

So, will they now re-evaluate the whole Brexit? It's clear it was a failed idea to begin with.

As far as I understand this vote wasn't intended to oppose brexit as a whole, it was intended to oppose brexit under recently negotiated terms. As in - they still want out, they just don't like that specific deal.

They won't get any other deal though. So out means paying for consequences with negative economic outcome.

The only pragmatic solution now is to cancel the whole thing. Let's see if they aren't too stubborn to do it.

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