Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament • Hacker News Board

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#91

Post by jcranmer » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

BossingAround wrote: post #70

All I can think of is, why? I don't know what were the main points against the deal, but the only reason I can think of that the deal is rejected is that Corbin, or whoever else would come out of this kerfuffle victorious, wants to re-issue vote on leaving the EU in order to stay..? This is insanely puzzling to me, and very much unexpected. Can someone ELI5..? Or maybe ELI15 would be enough.

The deal is a compromise. The Brexit faction never woke up to the reality that they were asking for things that the EU was never going to give, and so they hate it. (In particular, they hate the fact that it admits that this stuff is really complicated and needs more than 2 years to discuss). Remain would rather just remain, and see the deal has second-best to that. So everyone hates it because being in opposition means they don't have to come up with a plausible compromise.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#92

Post by albertgoeswoof » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #56

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #29

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Brexit is a real problem that the human race is faced with. There can be no higher question than that of what rules people should be using to deal with each other. For most of human history the rules were imposed by force. You open your market because if you don't, I'll escalate from sending a strongly worded missive all the way up to sending my armies to pillage your countryside. Recently we've moved to a more contr…

I’m not sure. I think we’ll leave or stay in the EU and it won’t make a tangible difference in the long run. Not in the way that say the internet, smartphones, antibiotics, nuclear weapons/power, quantum physics etc etc have made a difference to the world.

MAD means we probably won’t have a major war any time soon, so we’ll be trading with the EU regardless, it’s all semanitics and minor politics.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#93

Post by UK-Al05 » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

siquick wrote: post #60

simonbarker87 wrote: post #47

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it s…

It wasn't 52% of the country though. The voter turnout was 72% and that excludes the millions of under 18s who will be affected by this the most.

Tbh that is one of the highest turnouts ever.

Probably the most representative vote we've had.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#94

Post by arbitrary_name » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #83

toomuchtodo wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The referendum was non-binding. It would be entirely legitimate for Parliament to say "We can't obtain a satisfactory outcome and have opted to remain in the EU as it's a superior economic option." You don't continue to take your sovereign nation over the cliff because of an unreasonable minority of citizens (whether or not they were a majority of those who voiced their opinions in said referendum).

It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?

I'd much rather we tedo the referendum, as a substantial number of people have changed their minds when faced with reality.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#95

Post by ceejayoz » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

jarcane wrote: post #78

gonehome wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

Nigel Farage is a media-created bogey man, a hack to the system of “equal time”. He isn’t actually representative of anyone, even his own useless party, as polls and election results have consistently shown.

He was an MP, is still a MEP, and cofounded a party that once commanded "major party" status and nearly 20% of the vote in 2014. He's clearly representing some folks.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#96

Post by thereare5lights » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #56

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #29

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Brexit is a real problem that the human race is faced with. There can be no higher question than that of what rules people should be using to deal with each other. For most of human history the rules were imposed by force. You open your market because if you don't, I'll escalate from sending a strongly worded missive all the way up to sending my armies to pillage your countryside. Recently we've moved to a more contr…

People forget how bad things were in the past. This is one of the reasons why it's so dangerous to ignore history. Idiots like Scott Adams love saying history doesn't repeat when they actually mean events do not repeat exactly atom for atom, but human behavior repeats. It's also why idiots in the former Confederate states think that slavery was a walk in the park and that slave owners were so nice to their slaves.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#97

Post by robterrell » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #29

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Was Russian election interference a big part of this story? If so, that was money well spent.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#98

Post by blibble » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #23

tunesmith wrote: post #2

The whole thing seems like a slow motion train wreck, except with the potentially and arguably happy outcome of them remaining in the EU.

It's interesting to see this popular sentiment at the same time as the EU is loudly complained about concerning their new internet rules.

don't let the echo chamber fool you: the popular sentiment remains as it was on the day of the vote

the polls have hardly moved despite the political fuss

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#99

Post by SolaceQuantum » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit.

I understand the following timeline:

1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU.

2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not voting as such individually. Some portions of the UK, itself a Union, are strongly aganst this voting result.

3. May, a woman of great importance in the UK government, chooses to try and make a deal with the EU for favorable leaving conditions for UK.

4. Nothing May is presenting is considered acceptable by anyone.

On its face, this makes no sense to me. Why is May being held responsible for this? Where are the people who initially brought in Brexit- why are they not supporting May? What is preventing the referendum from being declared stupid and that the UK gov't is not going to do it?

EDIT: Thank you all for your excellent responses. I'm now under the impression this is like when a significant portion of a dev team with (actual, hypotehtical) equal or flat hierarchy believe that code needs to be refactored to a serious degree, but no majority of devs can decide on what the refactored code will look like. (Extremely simplified!). If this is largely incorrect please let me know.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#100

Post by InclinedPlane » Tue, Jan 15, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #55

yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

Maybe? If you think that most of the people are actually looking at or arguing about the implementation of any specific policy (I'd suspect this is the minority). It seems more likely people are just arguing about which tribe they're a part of. In that case nobody cares about what the best outcome is or what the truth is. If you can get a brexit deal passed that still allows the UK to 'brexit' in name only, but other…

It is not a "win-win" to allow people who vote (and make policy affecting millions of lives) based on a fantasy-ideology to continue in their fantasy.