I loved the comparison to a submarine made of cheese: https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222230791229440?l...
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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
151–160 of 1001 posts
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#152Of course it "failed". The government did everything it could to sabotage it and arrive at as unfavorable a set of exit conditions as possible. Even if she did want to get a good deal, May doesn't strike me as a cutthroat negotiator. Couple this with her unwillingness to abide by the will of the people (the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy), and you get this. This w…
> the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy
Literally, no. The size of the margin is a direct factor in many democratic processes and determines how resilient the decision is to subsequent challenge. Major, foundational changes are rarely decided by simple majorities in one event.
> You don't get a re-do just because you didn't like the outcome. To say otherwise opens you up to the same kind of bullshit
You just called some referendums "bullshit". Not very democratic of you. Follow-up referendums are totally valid democratic process, for example because sometimes you have widespread fraudulent claims that are later exposed to be lies. As the public becomes more educated, repolling to verify the public will is absolutely proper functioning and indeed and very essence of democracy.
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#153Are there British politicians brave enough and capable of becoming PM ... and willing to say "This is a bad idea and I won't do it?"
No
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m not sure. I think we’ll leave or stay in the EU and it won’t make a tangible difference in the long run. Not in the way that say the internet, smartphones, antibiotics, nuclear weapons/power, quantum physics etc etc have made a difference to the world. MAD means we probably won’t have a major war any time soon, so we’ll be trading with the EU regardless, it’s all semanitics and minor politics.
>MAD means we probably won’t have a major war any time soon Was the Korean war a major war in your book? To the Korean people it was. In that war, the US's having nukes did not prevent North Korea from starting the war, did not prevent the Soviets from sending MIGs with Soviet pilots against the US army and air force and did not prevent China from sending a million soldiers.
From a euro centric perspective Korea is a proxy war. MAD blocks major conflict directly between two nuclear states or states with strong nuclear allies. It doesn’t prevent wars fought in other territories backed by nuclear states (eg Syria)
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#155I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…
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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was, nevertheless, the directly expressed will of the people. This is very much the social contract that holds the society together, and makes the government accountable to the people. Would you rather they just did as they please?
The real issue is that the people who voted "for Brexit" were all voting for different things, because it wasn't at all articulated what "Brexit" would look like. Now that that's better understood, there should absolutely be a second referendum, probably with three ranked options: 1. Stay 2. Soft leave (May's deal) 3. Hard leave (No deal) With months and months of nonstop coverage, one could now say that there's broa…
The newspapers will scream that ranked voting is a conspiracy of the liberal elite to deny the will of the people.
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#157Ahhhh fudge ... People’s vote ... it might just happen. May now has to chat with the opposition, understand what it’d take to vote yes , take that to Europe, bring back a compromise ... vote again, get that accepted. People’s vote is starting to look like the more likely outcome... had she lost by say 50 or 100 votes ... ok but 432 vs 202 ?! 230 votes to claw back somehow .
I wonder what it's like being her sometimes, where you have, and will continue to fail at everything you do for years on end, in the most public and embarrassing way possible. I can't quite figure out if she is driven by just really wanting brexit, or it's just a power grab.
I don't understand her endgame either. Or how she can handle the stress. Her predecessor basically ordered the biggest bowl of shit [1] in the recent history and then bailed out. Now May's job is to eat it all. Masochistic.
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
That "woman of great importance in the UK government" is the Prime Minister. For the purpose of this discussion, and until she's voted out, she is the most important person in the United Kingdom.
10-4. Why is she being resoundedly disapproved upon by her own gov't? Presumably, the same gov't that put forth this vote? At least some significant margin of politicians must have wanted this vote knowing that 'yes' is on the table. Where are they?
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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#159I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…
> Where are the people who initially brought in Brexit
Former PM David Cameron put Leave/Remain to a vote, but publicly said he voted Remain. Resigned after the vote results. Theresa May took his place after some debate; she was vociferously pro-Brexit, and looked like the best option if Britain was to act tough when negotiating with the EU. A number of people dropped out of the succession race, gambling that the Brexit hassle wouldn't be worth it.
May survived a no-confidence vote in late 2018, but a number of members of her party have resigned because the deal on the table didn't sync with what's important to their constituents.
There are a number of factors, but May's insistence that net migration would fall to 5 figures was something people expected her to deliver. It's not going to happen.
Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament
#160I loved the comparison to a submarine made of cheese: https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222230791229440?l...
>Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do.
Leaving the EU is not a completely insane thing to do.
The UK (and many other countries) have legitimate grievances about some things the EU is foisting on them (immigration for example) and the EU is giving them the cold shoulder and fining them if they don't comply. Labelling people who are against that as "insane" isn't going to help anybody.