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Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

juliareda.eu

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Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#311

Post by LoSboccacc »

ric2b wrote: post #305
LoSboccacc wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no horror stories law need to be tested trough time, because it will be used by the next party in power for hundreds years, whether you like the party in power or not. the only reasonable way to reason about law is full on pessimism. it's like we already forgot the tyranny that was going on less than a century ago and was acquired through escalating legal abuse.

Does the EU parliament even have parties?

no they forbid dual mandate, they have now groups but those are super nationals. but the country receiving the regulations do, so there's that.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#312

Post by sonnyblarney »

iagooar wrote: post #79
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the EU is a functioning technocracy, only it's not really functioning is it?

You can say anything you want about the EU, but it's perfectly functioning and always has been.

"but it's perfectly functioning and always has been."

This is so deeply wrong it's offensive.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#313

Post by kodablah »

danijelb wrote: post #22

In a weird way, this might be EU's strategy to finally deal significant damage to Google and Facebook, as this law will encourage development of alternatives on decentralized peer-to-peer technologies. However, I'm not sure if EU politicians are that smart...

> [...] might [...]

Punitive measures on information like this rarely encourage anything. The worst part is people look at the intent and potential effects of legislation as though it is the actual, realized result. I have to assume the reason is a mix of naive optimism, anti-big-web-tech, and the inability to take the bad with the good so e feel obligated to keep shaping things. Real, actual teaching and encouraging and efforts and money and motive and all of that is far different from what's happening here.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#314

Post by Zak »

c3o wrote: post #267
atq2119 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those articles also aren't uploaded but merely linked, so the rule doesn't apply.

Another article of the same law (Article 11) would apply copyright also to shortest excerpts of news articles, anything longer than "individual words". (Colloquially known as the "link tax" provision.) So even reproducing the full title of a news article would likely be an infringement, and then that becomes another thing platforms take liability for/need to filter under Article 13. Whether there's a link or not woul…

> It's meant to allow EU news publishers to bill Google and the social networks for distributing snippets/link previews of their content.

I see this as an unreasonable reduction of previously established fair use. The fact that most of the companies linking to news articles using snippets are American, like Google and Facebook, while many news publishers involved are EU-based hints at a geopolitical motivation rather than any fundamental change to the fairness of this sort of use.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#315

Post by sonnyblarney »

danijelb wrote: post #22

In a weird way, this might be EU's strategy to finally deal significant damage to Google and Facebook, as this law will encourage development of alternatives on decentralized peer-to-peer technologies. However, I'm not sure if EU politicians are that smart...

"In a weird way, this might be EU's strategy to finally deal significant damage to Google and Facebook,"

Yes, it' a strategy of their failing commercial entities to wring a profit out of entities like FB and G who they think are profiting.

Of course it's among the worst strategies available.

What they need is more innovation, not more regulation.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#316

Post by hpcjoe »

hyperman1 wrote: post #185
GuB-42 wrote: post #160

It looks surprisingly reasonable. "internet platforms that organise and promote large amounts of copyright-protected works uploaded by their users in order to make a profit" That's actually a lot of limitation. From my understanding: "organise and promote" means it is not simple hosting, and "in order to make a profit" excludes organizations like Wikimedia Commons and "large amounts" most likely excludes smaller webs…

For your info: Hacker news is: - an Internet platform - that organizes and promotes large amounts of posts - which are copyright-protected works uploaded by their users - in order to make a profit as it is an advertisement for y combinator. So hacker news needs a filter lest you quote a sentence from some movie. What is 'meant' is irrelevant. Important is the letter of the law. Besides, 'meant' is a very dangerous wo…

One way to "fix" this, unfortunately, is the same way some firms "fixed" their non-GDPR compliance. Block European users. More specifically, block users coming from IPs known to be located in Europe.

Fundamentally, laws have jurisdictions that they are valid in. Imposition of a law outside of a jurisdiction is problematic at best, as it enables some bad actor countries (pick and choose who you want to consider to be in this group) to export their internal battles globally.

A great example of this is the US's FATCA rules, which have resulted (at least initially) in many non-US banks denying banking options to US citizens. Due to the threat built into the law, of being unable to leverage US banking system, if they fail to comply.

As someone else commented, the road to hell is paved with "good intentions". Solutions will emerge to route around the liabilities and costs this creates, but probably not initially.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#317

Post by minton »

paulie_a wrote: post #251
yostrovs wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear what's going on with GDPR, good test cases are only now starting to be tested. But the fact that many American newspapers, for example, are blocked in Europe is certainly something to worry about.

American newspapers don't need to care about GDPR. Most websites don't need to care about GDPR. Europe does not get to dictate how non European based websites operate. The GDPR can be outright ignored for a significant part of the internet. I have no idea why an American newspaper would give a shit about GDPR. They could literally put a huge banner up saying "fuck GDPR" and face zero legal consequences.

I’m not sure how accurate that is. It’s obvious to me that American companies larger than mine have cared enough to take action. If they really had no obligation I’m sure they would have simply done nothing.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#318

Post by kd5bjo »

ABCLAW wrote: post #274
hyperman1 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For your info: Hacker news is: - an Internet platform - that organizes and promotes large amounts of posts - which are copyright-protected works uploaded by their users - in order to make a profit as it is an advertisement for y combinator. So hacker news needs a filter lest you quote a sentence from some movie. What is 'meant' is irrelevant. Important is the letter of the law. Besides, 'meant' is a very dangerous wo…

>"internet platforms that organise and promote large amounts of copyright-protected works uploaded by their users in order to make a profit" HN does not organize large amounts of copyright-protected works, nor are the links to articles an 'upload'. If HN organized PDFs of the linked articles so you could just skip heading to a third party site then we'd be talking. 'meant' is not a dangerous word. All laws require in…

Many of the comments on HN are substantive enough to be covered by copyright, and modern copyright law protects everything protectable whether there’s a copyright notice or not.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#319

Post by toyg »

coldtea wrote: post #253
isostatic wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU is co-ruled by an opaque system of non elected bodies The EU council (comprising of democratically elected heads of government from the 28 member countries) The EU parliament (comprising of directly elected MEPs from the 28 member countries) The EU commission president, nominated by the council, approved by the parliament, and standing on a ticket to be EU Commission president during the parliamentary electi…

That's the version told to high schoolers in "How the EU works" lessons. In actual EU, decisions are made by informal bodies like the Eurogroup, meeting under close quarters and with no documentation, with economic and diplomatic pressure from top dog countries, with satellite states vote how their sugar daddy states ask them, and a whole lot more besides.

Do you really think that it would happen any differently, without the EU? There simply would be international treaties, which are even more opaquely-discussed, with no democratic oversight whatsoever and no recourse (national justice courts typically have no jurisdiction over international agreements).

With the EU, the process is formalized, opened up for scrutiny at many levels (sure, they could be more, there are people working on that problem), and then everyone can have a say through the European Court of Justice process.

The fact of the matter is that we live in an increasingly globalized world, and we must find ways to live together without resorting to the traditional genocidal ways (which are now practically unsustainable - a serious war on the continent would produce hundreds of millions of casualties). Somewhere, the political sausage-making has to happen.

Re: Article 13 is almost finished and will change the internet as we know it

#320

Post by kodablah »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #304
GuB-42 wrote: post #160

It looks surprisingly reasonable. "internet platforms that organise and promote large amounts of copyright-protected works uploaded by their users in order to make a profit" That's actually a lot of limitation. From my understanding: "organise and promote" means it is not simple hosting, and "in order to make a profit" excludes organizations like Wikimedia Commons and "large amounts" most likely excludes smaller webs…

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I can see most of the obvious impetus for this, but don't feel it's going to work out very well at all. I'm not sure what a smarter version of the legislation would look like. Maybe it works out, but there is some downside risk here which involves a brand new 'lawyer economy'.

> I can see most of the obvious impetus for this, but don't feel it's going to work out very well at all.

You can see this reaction to the GDPR where the discussion of benefits are hypothetical. Most of these pieces of legislation have predecessors that we can look to for real, practical results. And that practical result is that the governments have mandates to govern the internet in a large, globally-affecting, information/data-suppressing way.

> I'm not sure what a smarter version of the legislation would look like.

It would not exist. Different measures (education, funding, public services, public awareness, existing statute enforcement, accepting the costs of open information, etc) would be taken.

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