Live data from Hacker News

Chromium blacklists Nouveau

lists.freedesktop.org

101–110 of 411 posts

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#101
post #69

Nouveau are doing their best to reverse-engineer cards. NVIDIA doesn't help at all, not providing any docs and not interacting with the rest of the community. On the other hand, Intel and AMD have high-quality drivers and are part of the open-source community.

Nvidia is already helping the Nouveau maintainers by not suing them for all they are worth.

Hey, I think you're being downvoted a bit harshly for your statement so I've decided to help you out by not suing you.

Cheers.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#102
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not the browser's place to have any code whatsoever which even so much as glances at the graphics vendor to make meaningful decisions. I'm curious why you hold this position. I think it makes sense for the browser to attempt to deliver the best experience it can to users, and they may believe they get better performance and behavior from unaccelerated rendering. It's no different from websites looking at user-…

Note: I edited my comment to simply be a copy of the email I sent to the devs. You quoted the original text. >I think it makes sense for the browser to attempt to deliver the best experience it can to users, and they may believe they get better performance and behavior from unaccelerated rendering. So should they also blacklist Windows because it's spying on its users? No, of course not. They should do their best to…

They don't blacklist Windows because it spies on users, but they absolutely blacklist anything from AV to malware because it causes instability. https://blog.chromium.org/2017/11/reducing-chrome-crashes-ca... This seems like exactly the same thing. They're responsible for delivering a browser that renders webpages successfully. They're doing what needs to be done to make this happen.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#103

Nouveau are doing their best to reverse-engineer cards. NVIDIA doesn't help at all, not providing any docs and not interacting with the rest of the community. On the other hand, Intel and AMD have high-quality drivers and are part of the open-source community.

Ya. It's too bad their hardware isn't more competitive. I am definitely rooting for AMD to wow us next generation like they did in the CPU market. Things are getting far better for OSS you drivers. If you wanted any 3d acceleration in the past your only choice was the proprietary Nvidia driver or a broken proprietary ATI driver. (The ATI windows drivers were pretty buggy too during this period). Back then the proprie…

AMD GPU hardware is definitely competitive, they just aren't top of the line. At the mid range, they are very competitive, and that's what most people need anyway.

My next GPU will be an AMD GPU, as soon as my GTX 960 stops being sufficient (and no Wayland is certainly an issue).

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Unfortunately we don't have the resources to test every variation of every GPU/driver combination on linux So Google doesn't have the resources to test the default driver on the most widespread linux distribution for one of the two most widespread GPU producers in the market.

> most widespread linux distribution for one of the two most widespread GPU producers in the market That's still less than a percent of the market I think. Maybe shave off another order of magnitude. So the economic argument is not the one to make. However, it sucks nonetheless.

Its still probably hundreds of thousands of users. I hate arguments about "but Linux is only a fraction of the market!" because the total OS / browser usage market is in the billions of people. Even small fractions of that pie could found their own countries and be of reasonable size for a nation.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#105

Nouveau are doing their best to reverse-engineer cards. NVIDIA doesn't help at all, not providing any docs and not interacting with the rest of the community. On the other hand, Intel and AMD have high-quality drivers and are part of the open-source community.

What’s the rationale for NVIDIA for this? As the whole point is to expose hardware features through an API, what do they gain by keeping it closed? Are there features implemented purely in software?

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Clarification: at the time I was writing this comment, parent referred to the team that closed the bug as sons of bitches] The language you use is unnecessary. (Don't mean this in the blanket sense -- calling a SOB a SOB is fine -- but in this particular case.) The Chrome team was receiving bug reports due to driver issues, and now this driver is the default. They can either compromise the experience for some Ubuntu…

Here's why I used that language (and though I edited the comment, it was not because I rethought the use of the phrase): it is not the Chromium team's place to make this decision, and this decision actively harms the health of the Linux ecosystem. The decision of which driver to use is up to the user and up to the distro, and Chromium has absolutely no right to interfere with that. Nvidia is one of the worst actors o…

They aren't "interfering." They are falling back to software rendering when the GPU driver is incapable of supporting valid calls without crashing. If Windows or macOS started shipping buggy/crashing OpenGL drivers and not fixing them, Chromium would be entirely justified to fall back to software rendering there, and it would not be "interfering" with Windows or macOS development to do so.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Clarification: at the time I was writing this comment, parent referred to the team that closed the bug as sons of bitches] The language you use is unnecessary. (Don't mean this in the blanket sense -- calling a SOB a SOB is fine -- but in this particular case.) The Chrome team was receiving bug reports due to driver issues, and now this driver is the default. They can either compromise the experience for some Ubuntu…

Here's why I used that language (and though I edited the comment, it was not because I rethought the use of the phrase): it is not the Chromium team's place to make this decision, and this decision actively harms the health of the Linux ecosystem. The decision of which driver to use is up to the user and up to the distro, and Chromium has absolutely no right to interfere with that. Nvidia is one of the worst actors o…

> it is not the Chromium team's place to make this decision

It's not? Isn't Chromium their code?

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Clarification: at the time I was writing this comment, parent referred to the team that closed the bug as sons of bitches] The language you use is unnecessary. (Don't mean this in the blanket sense -- calling a SOB a SOB is fine -- but in this particular case.) The Chrome team was receiving bug reports due to driver issues, and now this driver is the default. They can either compromise the experience for some Ubuntu…

Here's why I used that language (and though I edited the comment, it was not because I rethought the use of the phrase): it is not the Chromium team's place to make this decision, and this decision actively harms the health of the Linux ecosystem. The decision of which driver to use is up to the user and up to the distro, and Chromium has absolutely no right to interfere with that. Nvidia is one of the worst actors o…

I have no idea how you interpret this as propping up Nvidia. They're blacklisting an (unofficial) Nvidia driver because it doesn't work. They're not telling users to use the official non-free ones; they're falling back to software rendering. Users who want acceleration can just buy an Nvidia competitor's card. Isn't that what you want?

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#109

> One idea is to flip GL_VENDOR to some random string if chromium is running. What? Don't do this - never do this. Regardless of whether or not you agree with Chromium's decision, it is their decision to make as the project maintainers; trying to trick the software with falsified data is overstepping your bounds, and both corrodes trust in your driver and leads to whitelists. I thought we had moved past the days of f…

The problem is that the Nouveau (and Ubuntu) devs have no way to overturn Googles decision in Chrome. Ubuntu can compile Chromium with a modified blacklist but Google distributes Chrome in a deb. You would need some special logic to catch the Chrome .desktop on install and add in the unblacklist flag.

Re: Chromium blacklists Nouveau

#110
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nvidia also does an excellent job of supporting linux. It's just not open source.

I don't know, I upgraded to 18.10 and my XPS's brightness control doesn't work. The Prime switchy thing can't change cards without a reboot, and if the screen goes to sleep between switching cards and rebooting, it never comes up again. Actually, with 18.10, it never comes up again anyway. I have a whole host of issues with nVidia cards, my next card is going to be AMD.

18.10 isn't even supported by Dell.
Post reply on HN