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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#131

Post by BeetleB »

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

>However, the experience was so drama, and more importantly self-loathing, free and so effective,

I remember reading a while ago that this is the main problem with 12 step programs. Not that they don't work (they often do), but the manner in which failure is viewed. With typical medical and therapy treatments, if one treatment (psychological or chemical) is not working, the attitude of the doctor is to consider other treatments. The claim was that with the 12 step program, if it doesn't work for a person, the person is the problem. The notion that the 12 step program isn't for everyone is usually absent.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#132

Post by yarrel »

stronglikedan wrote: post #89
thelasthuman wrote: post #46

For something supposedly so good on it's own, religion really does try it's best to target vulnerable people. Naive children, desperate people, people who have lost someone, people sick with addiction (referencing the submitting to the higher power step). Whatever helps during trying times I guess. It just seems to me if religion was so great on its own, it would be approached in a calm rational manner targeted at ma…

Religion has nothing to do with the higher power step. That's just meant to assert that there are things beyond one's control, even if your chosen higher power is just your conscience. In fact, 12 step programs are completely agnostic on their own (there are some who try to make it about a religious deity, but that's rare).

AA SPEAKER: Your "higher power" can be anything. It doesn't have to be God. RON HOWARD VOICE-OVER: It's God

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#133

Post by byproxy »

stephenhuey wrote: post #92
tdb7893 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example of those types of arguments? The linked article doesn't actually go into any of then and just referenced books I couldn't find. I'm very curious about this subject because in high school I took theology classes and the monks taught about the logical arguments but the arguments were always a little lackluster (the teacher's knew this going into it). The teacher's point during that section was th…

Peruse the short arguments section on Peter Kreeft's website: http://www.peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm

I've just read one (http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/design.htm) and it was less than convincing. In fact, I feel like it's a less-crude version of Mac's argument (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zgk8UdV7GQ0).

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#134

Post by yarrel »

thanatropism wrote: post #103
driverdan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are plenty of rational arguments for Christianity No there aren't. Faith, by its very definition, is irrational.

The subject matter of faith may be irrational, but faith-based communities have benefits that ratheists miss out on.

All communities have benefits that those they exclude and other miss out on.

But I'm not joining a communist cell just for the comradeship.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#135

Post by diminoten »

randomacct3847 wrote: post #24
virgilp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the quantity I guess, but... why is drinking 4-5 times a week not ok? Something like a glass of wine or a small beer should be fine, right? In some countries (e.g. France) it's a wide-spread habit to drink a glass of wine at lunch, and it doesn't seem to harm public health.

New findings show there’s no such thing as a “safe amount of alcohol” https://www.npr.org/2018/08/24/641618937/no-amount-of-alcoho...

One study, one time.

Also, studies find driving a car to be dangerous. Same with leaving your house.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#136

Post by cwkoss »

jyriand wrote: post #122
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Anyone know if there is something similar to quit smoking? Tried to quit cold turkey 20 times at least, usually can’t get past the first day.

Juul has helped a few friends quit smoking, but some still use the juul. Nicotine salts in their juice make it feel stronger than cigarettes, so its easier to switch than standard nicotine-base juices.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#138

Post by stale2002 »

stronglikedan wrote: post #89
thelasthuman wrote: post #46

For something supposedly so good on it's own, religion really does try it's best to target vulnerable people. Naive children, desperate people, people who have lost someone, people sick with addiction (referencing the submitting to the higher power step). Whatever helps during trying times I guess. It just seems to me if religion was so great on its own, it would be approached in a calm rational manner targeted at ma…

Religion has nothing to do with the higher power step. That's just meant to assert that there are things beyond one's control, even if your chosen higher power is just your conscience. In fact, 12 step programs are completely agnostic on their own (there are some who try to make it about a religious deity, but that's rare).

Ok, now what if I were to tell you that the idea that "things are beyond one's control" can also be a toxic ideology that pushing people into a forced helplessness position?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#139

Post by Retric »

virgilp wrote: post #121
Retric wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are looking at different studies. This is the meta analysis I am referring to: “Every category of drinking was associated with an increased risk of cancer.” https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268874745_Alcohol_c... PS: The study included what it called light drinking as a cancer risk. I am less generous with terminology.

Look at the "light drinking"[] result in figure 2 - most whiskers cross the 1.0 line when it's not downright in the left-hand side! (e.g. lung cancer relative risk - if you trust that result, it means light drinking _improves_ your lung cancer prospects). They flat out state that lymphoma risk is inversely correlated with drinking. AND it's only about cancer - no word about other diseases (e.g. ischemic heart disease…

You are ignoring what the paper actually says.

Each cancer type is independently analyzed independently. 1 wine a day measurably increases overal cancer risks as stated by the authors. Rather than assuming you have a better understanding after a quick analysis you may want to rethink your analysis.

Hint the base rate for each cancer is not equivalent.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#140

Post by rsyring »

tdb7893 wrote: post #58
rsyring wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty broad brush to paint all of religion with. There are plenty of rational arguments for Christianity for those willing to do due diligence: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/countering-a-dist...

Do you have an example of those types of arguments? The linked article doesn't actually go into any of then and just referenced books I couldn't find. I'm very curious about this subject because in high school I took theology classes and the monks taught about the logical arguments but the arguments were always a little lackluster (the teacher's knew this going into it). The teacher's point during that section was th…

Sorry, the link wasn't that good in hindsight. Was trying to respond between meetings.

Here is a better jumping off point :

http://www.veritas.org/how-does-christianity-measure-up/

If you want a very in depth treatment, then:

https://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-Knowledge-God-Theology-Lords...

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