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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#41

Post by samstave »

DanBC wrote: post #31
virgilp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the quantity I guess, but... why is drinking 4-5 times a week not ok? Something like a glass of wine or a small beer should be fine, right? In some countries (e.g. France) it's a wide-spread habit to drink a glass of wine at lunch, and it doesn't seem to harm public health.

You're right when you say that the quantity is important. The UK talks about "units" of alcohol. One unit is 10ml of pure alcohol. Drinks in the UK are labled with their Alcohol by Volume (ABV) percentage. To work out how many units are in a drink you multiply the serving size in litres by the ABV number. Current UK guidelines are no alcohol at all if you're pregnant, and less than 14 units a week with some days alco…

I watched this documentary on alcohol unit measurements in the UK...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNq-JcVlYD4

Kinda slow - so recommend watching on 1.5x speed or so.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#42

Post by samstave »

koolba wrote: post #37
DanBC wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right when you say that the quantity is important. The UK talks about "units" of alcohol. One unit is 10ml of pure alcohol. Drinks in the UK are labled with their Alcohol by Volume (ABV) percentage. To work out how many units are in a drink you multiply the serving size in litres by the ABV number. Current UK guidelines are no alcohol at all if you're pregnant, and less than 14 units a week with some days alco…

> Five glasses x 250ml x 12.5%ABV is 15.5 units. I’ve always found it easier to visualize drink quantities relative to a standard bottle, 750ml for most wine and spirits. So that 250ml serving is 1/3 of a bottle per glass.

Yep - its pretty commonly accepted that a bottle of wine is ~3 glasses.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#43

Post by foldr »

joekrill wrote: post #39
virgilp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the quantity I guess, but... why is drinking 4-5 times a week not ok? Something like a glass of wine or a small beer should be fine, right? In some countries (e.g. France) it's a wide-spread habit to drink a glass of wine at lunch, and it doesn't seem to harm public health.

I guess it depends what you define as "not ok". I mean, why is smoking 4-5 times a week not ok? Why is shooting up heroin 4-5 times a week not ok? In the end, we're simply willfully poisoning ourselves. For some reason we, as a society, have decided that it's OK to poison ourselves with certain substances (caffeine, cigarette smoke) but not others (heroin, methamphetamines). We've made this socially acceptable. So if…

> caffeine

There's little evidence that drinking coffee or tea is bad for you overall. In contrast, anything beyond very moderate alcohol consumption is almost certainly bad for you.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#44

Post by matwood »

xfitm3 wrote: post #36
UweSchmidt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be much more ingrained. Factory or construction workers used to drink during work, and if those old movies are to believe men would pour themselves drinks all the times. These days it is mostly acceptable to decline alcohol.

It used to be acceptable and widespread to drink at lunch in white collar jobs, too.

A buddy of mine's dad was an on the floor stock trader in the 70s/80s, and he joked that he made all his money taking advantage of the drunk people after lunch. Whether or not that part is true, he was serious when he said it was common for people to 2-3-4 martinis at lunch. He didn't drink, and still doesn't.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#45

Post by virgilp »

joekrill wrote: post #39
virgilp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the quantity I guess, but... why is drinking 4-5 times a week not ok? Something like a glass of wine or a small beer should be fine, right? In some countries (e.g. France) it's a wide-spread habit to drink a glass of wine at lunch, and it doesn't seem to harm public health.

I guess it depends what you define as "not ok". I mean, why is smoking 4-5 times a week not ok? Why is shooting up heroin 4-5 times a week not ok? In the end, we're simply willfully poisoning ourselves. For some reason we, as a society, have decided that it's OK to poison ourselves with certain substances (caffeine, cigarette smoke) but not others (heroin, methamphetamines). We've made this socially acceptable. So if…

I don't know enough about smoking or heroin to know whether they produce actual damage to your health, if done in small enough dosages. I guess 5 cigarettes per week (one per day) might not be that bad? But maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, smoking bothers others too (unlike drinking), and heroin is much more addictive (I suspect 5 doses a week would definitely end up hurting you).

By "not ok" I mean "actually harmful to your health". I don't buy the argument that "there is no safe dosage of alcohol", I've seen the claim but not actual evidence. AFAIK the liver is perfectly able to deal with small quantities of alcohol.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#46

Post by thelasthuman »

For something supposedly so good on it's own, religion really does try it's best to target vulnerable people. Naive children, desperate people, people who have lost someone, people sick with addiction (referencing the submitting to the higher power step).

Whatever helps during trying times I guess. It just seems to me if religion was so great on its own, it would be approached in a calm rational manner targeted at mature adults with no driving force behind it.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#47

Post by robertAngst »

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Can you detail this more?

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#48

Post by robertAngst »

empath75 wrote: post #38

Most people with substance abuse problems “grow out of it” with no outside help at all. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/arti... Just from personal experience partying with lots of drugs and drinking in the rave scene when I was in my 20s and djing and promoting, the vast vast majority of people just got tired of it one day and quit — or it interferes with their jobs or their families and they…

My issue is I'm extremely productive on weed.

I hate alcohol, but weed makes my life, and everyone elses lives better(I run a consumer website).

During my month off weed, I pretty much only wanted to relax and play video games.

It seems to benefit, which makes it addicting.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#49

Post by matwood »

randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

Same thing. I wouldn't say I ever had a problem with alcohol, but even 1-2 drinks here or there do not line up with my life goals. I realized that even a single drink makes me feel not quite 100% the next day, and this effect has only increased as I've gotten older.

I do like beer and wine so I will have one on occasion. I found it makes them actually taste better, as I savor it now.

Some other side benefits is that it saves a TON of money, and I consume less calories. Alcohol is expensive, particularly in a bar or restaurant. Less calories is obvious.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#50

Post by mdhen »

chasil wrote: post #14
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Naltrexone/nalmefene works with 85% of the population, while 15% do not respond because of genetic disposition. Of the 85% who do respond, 75% are successful in what they are attempting. Proponents advise you to take it for the rest of your life. Naltrexone is not costly. This is your decision.

Using the Sinclair method you only take naltrexone when you drink (well just prior to drinking). Not at all times. It's not expensive and it works so so well. In Finland it is the first line treatment option for alcoholism and it's wildly successful.
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