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Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

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Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#81

Post by Retric »

virgilp wrote: post #77
Retric wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying something is ok in moderation always defines moderation relative to the harm. This study puts moderation very low ~1-2 glasses of wine a month. Studies focused on different forms of harm have different thresholds, but you get all forms of harm not just what a specific study looks at. Saying I accept the harm for this benefit is fine, but pretending it does not exist is irrational.

Do you have the study? Not some newspaper articles. It feels very unlikely to me that they were able to prove harm from 3 glasses a month, I'd like to read that. [edit] In the article cited in NPR, https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2818... , which makes the claim "zero consumption minimises risk", you can see that ischemic heart disease & diabetes risks actually go down for 1 glass a day, while…

We are looking at different studies. This is the meta analysis I am referring to:

“Every category of drinking was associated with an increased risk of cancer.”

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268874745_Alcohol_c...

PS: The study included what it called light drinking as a cancer risk. I am less generous with terminology.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#82

Post by normal_man »

geggam wrote: post #80

People who abuse substances are attempting to escape their reality because they feel powerless to change it. Educating people how to change their life is the cure. That or changing society so people aren't powerless to fix their own destiny. Until that happens the chemical people are addicted to is irrelevant. They can use any number of drugs to include sugar in a way that is detrimental to their health and will do s…

This is overly simplistic. People may start to abuse substances because of a feeling of powerlessness, depression or some other form of unhappiness, but once addicted, a person's life can improve and the use will continue until the psychological connections are broken and rewired.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#83

Post by geggam »

normal_man wrote: post #82
geggam wrote: post #80

People who abuse substances are attempting to escape their reality because they feel powerless to change it. Educating people how to change their life is the cure. That or changing society so people aren't powerless to fix their own destiny. Until that happens the chemical people are addicted to is irrelevant. They can use any number of drugs to include sugar in a way that is detrimental to their health and will do s…

This is overly simplistic. People may start to abuse substances because of a feeling of powerlessness, depression or some other form of unhappiness, but once addicted, a person's life can improve and the use will continue until the psychological connections are broken and rewired.

Having been addicted I find complicating things to add to the issue.

Simplest method to fix it is to address the underlying issues starting with the biggest first.

As a note. You cannot fix this for other people they have to want to fix it and change.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#84

Post by nabnob »

graeme wrote: post #74
Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

Does this only work for alcoholism, or does naltrexone work for any compulsive behaviour?

Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, meaning that it blocks your opioid receptors and basically prevents opioids from having an effect. Naltrexone and naloxone (another opioid antagonist) are used in treating opiate addictions.

Not an expert, but my understanding is that these receptors (and naturally occurring opioids) play a role in the reward pathways in the brain, so it's possible that naltrexone and other opioid antagonists could be effective for other types of addiction or compulsive behaviors.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#85

Post by Nexxxeh »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #26
randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

It used to be much more ingrained. Factory or construction workers used to drink during work, and if those old movies are to believe men would pour themselves drinks all the times. These days it is mostly acceptable to decline alcohol.

While I'm guessing you probably know, for those outside of the UK - The story of one of Scotland's national drinks, Irn-Bru, is somewhat related.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irn-Bru

Unfortunately the sugar tax, a tax on sugar-laded drinks, has resulted in them changing the recipe and now it's disgusting tasting.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#86

Post by driverdan »

rsyring wrote: post #52
thelasthuman wrote: post #46

For something supposedly so good on it's own, religion really does try it's best to target vulnerable people. Naive children, desperate people, people who have lost someone, people sick with addiction (referencing the submitting to the higher power step). Whatever helps during trying times I guess. It just seems to me if religion was so great on its own, it would be approached in a calm rational manner targeted at ma…

That's a pretty broad brush to paint all of religion with. There are plenty of rational arguments for Christianity for those willing to do due diligence: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/countering-a-dist...

> There are plenty of rational arguments for Christianity

No there aren't. Faith, by its very definition, is irrational.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#87

Post by stronglikedan »

PakG1 wrote: post #75
randomacct3847 wrote: post #17

It only hit me in the past few months how ingrained alcohol/drinking culture is in adult lives. It’s absolutely everywhere (ads, sports events, festivals, workplace, nightlife, social events). It’s actually crazy how lightly we treat this addictive, toxic substance that we joke about despite how many people it kills every year and harms directly and indirectly. At some point I was unknowingly drinking 4-5 times a wee…

The unfortunate thing is how much people actually buy into it. I remember once in university, I was at a national entrepreneurship conference for student entrepreneurs. One night, there was a party at a club type of venue. I was sitting with a pretty female friend from my university when she asked me to get her water. So I went and got her a bottle of water. This jerk from another university walks up to us and incred…

> how much did that guy...and how much was that guy...

Neither. It's a common joke used when people get water when there's a bar close by. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't have to be believed, and one does not have to be a "scared kid inside" to say it. I think you just read way too much into it, perhaps since it was your first encounter with said joke.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#88

Post by chasil »

PenguinCoder wrote: post #67
mdhen wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really naltrexone when you drink, and only when you drink. They also advise drinking somewhat frequently at the start so your brain can quickly break the connection between alcohol and having a really good time. Once it is broken you do need to continue using naltrexone every time you want a drink or over time you will go back to being addicted. But it is generic and not expensive to get.

Where did you get it generic and cheaply from? My primary won't prescribe it.

See the book:

https://www.benbellabooks.com/shop/the-cure-for-alcoholism-s...

There is a chapter in this book "for the physician."

If you have brought this to your physician, and you are still refused, get a new physician. Request all your records, and depart.

GoodRX will let you price compare. Most sources are under $2 per pill.

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#89

Post by stronglikedan »

thelasthuman wrote: post #46

For something supposedly so good on it's own, religion really does try it's best to target vulnerable people. Naive children, desperate people, people who have lost someone, people sick with addiction (referencing the submitting to the higher power step). Whatever helps during trying times I guess. It just seems to me if religion was so great on its own, it would be approached in a calm rational manner targeted at ma…

Religion has nothing to do with the higher power step. That's just meant to assert that there are things beyond one's control, even if your chosen higher power is just your conscience. In fact, 12 step programs are completely agnostic on their own (there are some who try to make it about a religious deity, but that's rare).

Re: Sobriety startups shaking up the 12-step model

#90

Post by markab21 »

Quequau wrote: post #11

After years and years of struggling with alcoholism and AA, I got sober with naltrexone using the "Sinclair Method". I followed the treatment plan for a few weeks and at the end quitting drinking was easy and obvious. That was just over ten years ago and I haven't had a drink or gone to any meetings since. I'm only one person and I'm fully aware that the plural of anecdote isn't data. However, the experience was so d…

From your short message, it seems our experience with alcohol is similar. I've been struggling with my level of alcohol consumption, about 7-8 months ago I read an article on the Atlantic[1] that detailed the effectiveness of naltrexone.

I've included it as others might find it helpful.

[1] - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr...

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