Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators • Hacker News Board

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#41

Post by glandium » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #39

dpau wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree! Patreon misses the point of Patreon. I guess people are more likely to become patrons if there's some reward, and Patreon wants to encourage growth. But in doing so they are creating an environment where there's an expectation that we, the creators, spend precious time making special, walled-off content when the whole point of my needing Patreon is because my content is free . Besides the irony of t…

That's an interesting idea. I watch videos, and I don't mind videos that promote their Patreon page and/or other member exclusive benefits. They are free to make videos how ever they like, but I wonder is promoting member exclusive content actually undermines their success. For example, in this SciShow video => https://youtu.be/fsS6d4byK4A?t=143 - make free content, get free viewers - promote Patreon to viewers, get…

Here's a counter example: https://m.youtube.com/user/Dogen

He does what could be described as stand up comedy around the japanese language.

And his patreon has comprehensive japanese pronunciation and intonation lessons. https://www.patreon.com/dogen

They're different but related things with different but overlapping audience.

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#42

Post by cpach » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:03 PM UTC

mikker wrote: post #22

hjek wrote: post #6

I like that they are open about their expenses[0]. That's unusual. I wish they would be able to accept payments w/o requiring users to run non-free JS. [0]: https://10er.co/open

Thanks! I like to share. JS is he way Stripe works and without Stripe there's no 10er. You're the first one to mention this though. So while I agree that it's not without problems, I'm not sure it's holding that many donators back.

I would be surprised if even 1‰ of the potential donors would care about this aspect. Best of luck with the business!

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#43

Post by webmaven » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

zozbot123 wrote: post #38

pjc50 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, if I facilitate people arguing for fascism I will also eventually lose freedoms if they win. And in the meantime make a number of other people just that little bit more miserable.

"Fascism" has never won by arguing , though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. That's not free speech , and it's not even something that our government protects. Threats are illegal. Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

> It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence [...] to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that.

First, though fascism is isn't particularly well-defined, it is definitely better defined than that (since you're describing a tactic rather than an ideology), and that just isn't what fascism means[0], second, even if it was, it would still be possible to advocate for it without crossing that line and leave facilitation to other (usually covert) channels.

Still, although advocacy for fascist views would be legal, I have no particular problem with public platforms restricting speech that promotes those views[1].

The analogy elsewhere in this thread to the phone system is flawed, as that implies regulating private speech.

OTOH, so long as money equals speech, there is an argument for creating payment infra that is more along the lines of a public utility or common-carrier for transactions that may not discriminate, since there are other categories of public speech besides fascism that are often unjustly denied access to payment infra.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#44

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

zozbot123 wrote: post #38

pjc50 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, if I facilitate people arguing for fascism I will also eventually lose freedoms if they win. And in the meantime make a number of other people just that little bit more miserable.

"Fascism" has never won by arguing , though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. That's not free speech , and it's not even something that our government protects. Threats are illegal. Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

It may not be defined, but it can certainly be characterised. Umberto Eco has a good list: http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fasci...

Missing from that page is the preamble in which he describes growing up under Mussolini.

> Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

Speech that leads to or implies violence at slightly greater remove is, however. Circulating pictures of targets with people's faces on; calling for violence or that people should arm themselves against an outgroup; that kind of thing.

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#45

Post by raarts » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

zozbot123 wrote: post #38

pjc50 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, if I facilitate people arguing for fascism I will also eventually lose freedoms if they win. And in the meantime make a number of other people just that little bit more miserable.

"Fascism" has never won by arguing , though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. That's not free speech , and it's not even something that our government protects. Threats are illegal. Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment. Only in an environment where everybody was a-ok with opposing opinions being suppressed, which allowed fascists to suppress different opinions.

Following this reasoning, GP's stance enables fascism.

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#46

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

raarts wrote: post #45

zozbot123 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fascism" has never won by arguing , though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. That's not free speech , and it's not even something that our government protects. Threats are illegal. Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment. Only in an environment where everybody was a-ok with opposing opinions being suppressed, which allowed fascists to suppress different opinions. Following this reasoning, GP's stance enables fascism.

> Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment

Ah, why look at history when we can have hypothesis! I mean, you could have chosen some wrong or out of context examples of fascism to cite, but instead it's much easier to just pretend, right?

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#47

Post by danmaz74 » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

zozbot123 wrote: post #38

pjc50 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, if I facilitate people arguing for fascism I will also eventually lose freedoms if they win. And in the meantime make a number of other people just that little bit more miserable.

"Fascism" has never won by arguing , though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. That's not free speech , and it's not even something that our government protects. Threats are illegal. Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

Fascism didn't win by arguing alone, but arguing was a very important part of their strategy - please notice that the creator of fascism, Mussolini, became famous as a (vitriolic) journalist.

Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#48

Post by megous » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 2:54 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #40

megous wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to a different site was sold as a benefit (given that the different site is/was the biggest and the most used bank in the country - so this helps with the trust issue). Also it's strictly superior to iframe hackery anyway. At least you can check that the site is not trying to scam you for your CC info, which you really can't (as a normal user) when the site is using iframes, because you'll not see iframe's URL…

I'm sure that's correct, but I doubt most users are that sophisticated.

Speaking of which, how do you know?

Not that many people fall for phishing e-mails, for example. It's somewhere between 10-30% based on email type, if that's anyhting to go by.

I couldn't find any research on purely web based phishing.

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#49

Post by ForHackernews » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 3:01 PM UTC

megous wrote: post #48

ForHackernews wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that's correct, but I doubt most users are that sophisticated.

Speaking of which, how do you know? Not that many people fall for phishing e-mails, for example. It's somewhere between 10-30% based on email type, if that's anyhting to go by. I couldn't find any research on purely web based phishing.

I'm not talking about people falling for phishing, I'm talking about legitimate customers getting irritated or suspicious and abandoning the purchase after being bounced to another domain to put in their credit card details.

Our conversion rate got much better when we switched to a single-page purchase flow. My theory is that because "real" sites like Amazon don't force users over to a separate bank page, users have come to expect that experience. Redirecting out to Paypal (or whatever) marks you as a "disreputable" fly-by-night operation in users' minds.

Re: Bootstrapping 10er, a Patreon-similar service for Danish creators

#50

Post by djaychela » Fri, Jan 04, 2019, 4:01 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #21

djaychela wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>and that's going to leave you uncertain about its future unlike Patreon Given the events of the past month or so, I wouldn't be completely sure about the future of patreon. It's definitely shown the way forward in terms of supporting creators, but the repercussions of their actions seem to be gaining a lot of traction and putting doubt into trusting patreon for people who supported creators via the platform in the…

the repercussions of their actions seem to be gaining a lot of traction Is that based on hard figures from Patreon, or more of an impression based on the people you talk to?

It's based on a significant number of people who are large Patreon account holders closing their accounts (Sam Harris is the first one to spring to mind, I believe he had the 13th largest account by monthly donation), and also a number of people saying their income via Patreon has decreased significantly as a result of patrons leaving the platform.

Plus there seems to be a lot of disquiet about Patreon and people trying to set up competition for them (SubscribeStar, Dave Rubin/Jordan Peterson's project) which seems to be gaining a lot more attention than it would have otherwise - up to this point many people (myself included) were completely happy with Patreon.