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Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there are those issues but I suspect you are not not 100% commenting in good faith here.

> Yes there are those issues but I suspect you are not not 100% commenting in good faith here. I don't even know what this accusation is supposed to mean. Could you spell out what "bad faith" you are imputing here?

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#82
post #79

The title "Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class" does the topic a great injustice, obfuscating the origins of many modern labor unions (including the AFL-CIO) as functional white supremacist organizations. If you were Chinese or Indian, unions were directly responsible for your deportation. If you were Japanese, unions were directly responsible for your family's forced internment. If you were Puerto…

The article addresses racial injustice directly, although not in the direction that you think: > [Freeman and Medoff] showed that contrary to popular belief, unions actually decreased racial wage disparities. > A recent paper by economists Henry Farber, Daniel Herbst, Ilyana Kuziemko and Suresh Naidu concludes that unions were an important force reducing inequality in the U.S. [...] The authors find that as unionizat…

> The article addresses racial injustice directly, although not in the direction that you think:

First, the claim that this benefited "black and other nonwhite workers" is completely unsubstantiated by the actual Farber paper.

But secondly, that is not "addressing racial injustice". The people who weren't deported and didn't have their land forcibly seized by union members[0] benefited economically, yes, but that was never the question. And pretending it is misses the entire point.

[0] which was permitted under California law, after the Exclusion act

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#83
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting idea to incentivize startups to invite the union in. I wouldn't be against joining a union (and paying reasonable dues) if it means that I also have healthcare. Does that mean if I decide to start a venture, my venture will have healthcare from day 0? If so, that's a pretty neat idea. EDIT: I just also thought that the interests of a union of startup developers and union of enterprise/large-co developers…

In the case of DGA/SGA, it means that you get your healthcare from the union, not your employer. So as long as you're a union member in good standing (and the dues are substantial, just to be clear), you have healthcare coverage through them.

Well, healthcare costs are substantial. It's probably preferable that we offer employers the ability to either a) completely cover dues, or b) pay for the healthcare costs.

My main gripe with Unions are the huge costs and the major lack of benefits people receive. I'd also prefer to join a Union that isn't hugely centralized and falls to the ills of bureaucracy.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#84
post #59

The title "Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class" does the topic a great injustice, obfuscating the origins of many modern labor unions (including the AFL-CIO) as functional white supremacist organizations. If you were Chinese or Indian, unions were directly responsible for your deportation. If you were Japanese, unions were directly responsible for your family's forced internment. If you were Puerto…

Not sure why downvoted. While I object to "everything I don't like is racist" bullshit, this one is actually true--unions are not only xenophibic, by misogynistic. The union my Dad was a member of bragged about how it ran women out, usually via overt sexual harassment. Everyone thinks unions are some great system but they suck in actual practice. The absolutely suck--it's just more egos and personalities in the way o…

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#85
In Germany unions ensure that Workers get a fair share of the profits - and they understand that the company must be profitable in order for that to happen. But in the UK unions just want to destroy companies in an effort to smash capitalism, they exploit Workers even more than bosses do. It’s probably too late but we need German style unions here, then people would join.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes there are those issues but I suspect you are not not 100% commenting in good faith here. I don't even know what this accusation is supposed to mean. Could you spell out what "bad faith" you are imputing here?

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#87
There is definitely something missing in the current management/employee relationship.

For example, the Wells Fargo account fraud issue. Where they had thousands of new accounts being opened without customer authorization. Caused by ratcheting sales mandates and mid level management pushing employees to open accounts fraudulently and firing those who objected. It showed an obvious lack of ability for the branch level employees to push back, and everyone involved being worse off for it. A more organized group of employees could have pushed back effectively and prevented a costly situation for Wells. This benefits more than just the workers. It's not like the shareholders were better off after having a bunch of fraudulent accounts opened to game sales metrics.

In my opinion there are many business instances where a small problem becomes a large one because acknowledging a small problem would offset this quarters goals, or embarrass someone who has enough authority to prevent acknowledging it.

This missing piece certainly looks union-shaped, but the problem is that any union strong enough to push back against bad policy is also strong enough to push back against good policy. Unions are also not immune to the same power dynamics where small problems can go unacknowledged.

Rather than rehash the 1930s, what would a well coordinated 21st century organization look like? One that resists small numbers of managers risking the business just to make a bonus target, or pad their resumes? Yet is also able to take advantage of new efficiencies and market opportunities without employee revolt. Are there existing models that work that we could grow to cover other industries?

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#88
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. They're not solely acting in the interests of compassion and kindness. We do nobody any favors by pretending there's no economic logic at work.

Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. What you call a "barrier to entry", others might call "certification of some base level of quality". Yeah, if you sling spaghetti Javascript, we're not letting you in, or summat. I'm not saying it always does, or even will, work out that way, but it is one option.

I would really like to have something like that, but we currently lack a baseline curriculum that defines this "base level of quality". Stuff that won't change over the course of a programmer's career. Most conventional wisdoms in our craft are little more than fads at this point. Just look at how many colleges teach object-oriented programming with Java, while many professionals declare OOP dead, a thing of the past, only to be found in legacy monstrosities.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. What you call a "barrier to entry", others might call "certification of some base level of quality". Yeah, if you sling spaghetti Javascript, we're not letting you in, or summat. I'm not saying it always does, or even will, work out that way, but it is one option.

I would really like to have something like that, but we currently lack a baseline curriculum that defines this "base level of quality". Stuff that won't change over the course of a programmer's career. Most conventional wisdoms in our craft are little more than fads at this point. Just look at how many colleges teach object-oriented programming with Java, while many professionals declare OOP dead, a thing of the past…

As an additional wrinkle, any baseline curriculum that involves any reasonable amount of computing theory will put a lot of self-taught professional software engineers on the outside. That seems like it might be a hurdle to getting buy-in.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#90
There needs to be a balance between the powers of employers, employees and government (as a regulator and moderator between the other two parties). I think any reasonable comparison of this power balance between the US and other successful democracies would show that employers have more power in the US than most places.

I believe the US system of political clientelism has been especially unfavorable for US workers since the mid-nineties. Globalization has taken away their bargaining power, and politics have been taken over by business interests.

I think this shift in the power structure is the major reason for the continued worsening of inequality-measures (e.g GINI-coefficient) in the US, to a level now only comparable to third world and less democratic countries.

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