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Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

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Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#61

Post by mikeryan »

acchow wrote: post #5
mattdeboard wrote: post #4

This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? What would be the economic impacts? Not looking for pro- or anti-union sloganeering, but real impacts. The economics of the tech sector would change dramatically with organized labor in computing, and I'm interested in how those changes would manifest.

I wonder how unionized labor would interact with US visas. If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike.....do you have to leave the country?

You are still employed while striking. I don't know why this would affect a visa. There are edge cases however where sometimes employees are not under contract during negotiations but the general provision for this is that the existing contract terms stay in place until a new contract is done.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#63

Post by walshemj »

Kalium wrote: post #46
walshemj wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a problem with that is how do you define what is "law breaking" / "unethical" - its not a Unions job to be judge an jury here also it would make it hard to recruit widely. And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations.

> And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations. Some actively call themselves guilds today - Writers Guild, Screen Actors Guild, Directors Guild of America, etc. Should we not use their word of choice?

Its problematic for a number of reasons the history of trade unions in the USA and also some of the historical functions of "guilds" run counter to the aims of modern trade unions.

19th century trade union cosplay isn't going to organise professionals in the 21st century or anyone else for that matter - I am sure even Keith Flett would agree with me.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#64

Post by vonmoltke »

chimeracoder wrote: post #56
danjayh wrote: post #49

He mentions the impact of globalization, but I think that it's a much bigger deal than he makes of it. For work that can easily be offshored (manufacturing, software dev, phone/online support, creative work, etc.) the obvious corporate response to unionization it to move shop. OTOH, for professions that can't easily be offshored (medical, local services such as fire/police/utilities, education, etc.), many are still…

> Some of the unions are non-traditional - for instance, the AMA (American Medical Association) effectively serves a role as a Doctors' union even though they don't advertise themselves as such. They control training into the profession, they are the sole arbiter of who can practice the profession, and they generally work to suppress supply below the level of demand (and therefore drive up wages). None of this is tru…

> That's determined by the number of residency positions available, which is capped by the AAMC, not the AMA.

The number of Medicare-funded residency positions available is capped by the AAMC. Nothing but an unwillingness to do so is stopping more institutions from opening non-Medicare-funded residency billets.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#65

Post by peisistratos »

gibsonf1 wrote: post #18

Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit. The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in, as then you would need fewer workers. So in not allowing innovation, the unions were key factors in destroying entire industries which have now been built elsewhere. If t…

> destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit

And what destroyed the textile mills of North and South Carolina, which were barely organized at all? They were and still are the states with the lowest unionization rates in the country.

The difference is Michigan union activists like Larry Page's grandfather sent his son to college, and then his son writes a search engine while doing his doctorate.

Meanwhile, the profits of Carolina textile mills went elsewhere, and the people in those towns are worse off than ever.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#66

Post by chimeracoder »

vonmoltke wrote: post #64
chimeracoder wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of the unions are non-traditional - for instance, the AMA (American Medical Association) effectively serves a role as a Doctors' union even though they don't advertise themselves as such. They control training into the profession, they are the sole arbiter of who can practice the profession, and they generally work to suppress supply below the level of demand (and therefore drive up wages). None of this is tru…

> That's determined by the number of residency positions available, which is capped by the AAMC, not the AMA. The number of Medicare-funded residency positions available is capped by the AAMC. Nothing but an unwillingness to do so is stopping more institutions from opening non-Medicare-funded residency billets.

> The number of Medicare-funded residency positions available is capped by the AAMC. Nothing but an unwillingness to do so is stopping more institutions from opening non-Medicare-funded residency billets.

Yes, except the fact that it's unprofitable to do so. Residency positions, contrary to popular belief, generally lose money, which is why the government subsidizes 75% of their costs in the first place.

The reason we don't have more doctors is because the funding isn't there. It has nothing to do with the AMA, as OP claimed.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#67

Post by jaggederest »

tuxxy wrote: post #22
jaggederest wrote: post #3

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

Interesting idea to incentivize startups to invite the union in. I wouldn't be against joining a union (and paying reasonable dues) if it means that I also have healthcare. Does that mean if I decide to start a venture, my venture will have healthcare from day 0? If so, that's a pretty neat idea. EDIT: I just also thought that the interests of a union of startup developers and union of enterprise/large-co developers…

In the case of DGA/SGA, it means that you get your healthcare from the union, not your employer. So as long as you're a union member in good standing (and the dues are substantial, just to be clear), you have healthcare coverage through them.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#68

Post by KoenDG »

gibsonf1 wrote: post #18

Unions were great at stifling innovation and destroying some of our former industries such as Steel and Automotive - see what's left of former very wealthy Detroit. The classic example is the unions not allowing the Toyota Lean Production system in, as then you would need fewer workers. So in not allowing innovation, the unions were key factors in destroying entire industries which have now been built elsewhere. If t…

Plenty of countries have unions and their industries have no such problems.

Not saying those things you describe didn't happen.

However, one should wonder why almost the entire rest of the world manages to do this just fine.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#69

Post by jaggederest »

darawk wrote: post #44
jaggederest wrote: post #3

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

Do you think there are software engineers making wages you would consider inhumane ?

It's less about wages and more about work conditions. But I do know people on short contracts making less than I would consider humane wages.

Certainly not in the SF bay area, but I'm not located there.

Re: Unions Did Great Things for the American Working Class

#70

Post by bryanlarsen »

1999 wrote: post #13

I haven't read the paper and I probably won't, but it seems suspicious to me that the 1940 to 1970 timeframe mentioned just happens to coincide with WW2 and the aftermath and recovery. If you aren't prepared to systematically destroy foreign cities and industry I don't think you can recreate those conditions.

Generally, inequality increases during times of growth; it's a general rule that the rich get richer faster than the poor get richer.

It's during times of decline that you normally expect inequality to decline. After all, the rich collect the profits while the poor collect wages. Wages are relatively fixed while profits vary wildly.

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