Earlier quoted context omitted.
I read become a lawyer in 8 hours the howto book, am i still committing fraud?
Yes.
So its almost like there is still a legal standard for what a lawyer is
Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
251–260 of 309 posts
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#252Earlier quoted context omitted.
Out of curiosity: I studied engineering in Germany. There's no such thing as a PEng in Germany -- the only thing is that the title of Dipl.-Ing. (equivalent to MEng), which was the culmination of my studies, is protected. How does it make you feel for me to claim I'm an engineer? (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )
> (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) ) I feel similarly to you, but would extend it to cover most software development, period. With feet in multiple traditional engineering disciplines, I don't see the majority of software development as coming close to the bar of engineering (though some certainly does). And I don't mean that in the sense of licensure, n…
My computer engineering degree included Chemistry, Physics, Mechanical Engineering (statics/dynamics) Multivariate Calculus, Differential Equations / Linear Algebra, as well as Humanities (writing, history, art) in addition to software, hardware, electronics... Am I not coming close to the "bar of engineering"?
You can boil engineering down (maybe a bit much, but bear with me) to: plan, execute, measure, adjust. The difference between software /programming/ and software /engineering/ is that programming often stops after execute, and hands measure to someone else maybe, whereas a software engineer is constantly measuring what they are doing and trying to understand why it may be deviating from plan, and how to make it better in the future.
To wit, you don't need software engineers to build you a web application, but you had better have them working on your file system.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#253This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.
If you are performing reserved acts from Ontario you are infringing regardless of how you call yourself.
I imagine that's impossible to do in the software world. Overwhelming majority of software developers are not registered engineers.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#254Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a PhD, but can't represent myself as doctor or use the Dr. Prefix as this is reserved for member of the college of doctors.
That’s bonkers! Doctor was originally a title for academics before medics borrowed it. I think medics without an MD or PhD shouldn’t be using the title. What country is that in?
Canada, specifically Quebec (I am not sure about other provinces).
I find it slightly annoying too. However, my degrees are in engineering and it makes sense to me that the engineer term is reserved.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#255Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm putting my chips on them using the same word we do in the US: conductors ? Or is that the other fella in the train
The conductor manages all aspects of the train other than its locomotion. Oh, and they serve as the engineer's eyes when locomoving in reverse. :-)
> Oh, and they serve as the engineer's eyes when locomoving in reverse. :-)
Not on any system I've taken in the US. The trains have a special control car on the non-locomotive end of the train, and the engineer switches positions when switching travel directions. There is also the practice of using two or more locomotives, with at least one pair facing opposite directions so the set can be hitched to either side of the train, and dual-cab locomotives that can also be hitched to either side with a forward-facing control deck.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#256Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you are performing reserved acts from Ontario you are infringing regardless of how you call yourself.
I imagine that's impossible to do in the software world. Overwhelming majority of software developers are not registered engineers.
Something public safety can be at risk in the software world. Medical devices immediately comes to mind (look up Therac-25). Some software acts are reserved. Most of my friends are registered software engineers.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#257Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's not oversell the PE or the FE: I took both drunk and completed them in under 3 hours each. The true point of being a professional engineer is that you've satisfied the MINIMUM requirements to be licensed and, therefore, you are licensed by the state to sign off on documents within what you consider your expertise. It relies on you to make that determination with the understanding that you should know better, re…
If he were holding himself out as a "professional engineer," I'd absolutely agree with you. However, there are entire fields of engineering that have largely ignored the PE. Good luck finding a PE, for example, to work under if you're an electrical engineer to even be eligible to sit for the PE exam. I don't think such engineers are any less engineers because they lack a PE.
Absolutely there are entire fields that have abandoned licensure or have no real need for licensure. These are usually fields where designs are not public facing or reviewed by a state agency and so no implied liability occurs.
However, I think it is incredibly important to note that the story in question had a guy who was claiming to be an engineer and talking about traffic signal timing. Traffic engineering (and all other subsets of civil engineering) is definitely NOT one of the fields that has abandoned licensure. Civil engineering has the highest percentage of licensure of any engineering discipline that I know of. Anything related to a traffic signal, in my experience, has had to be dual stamped by both a licensed civil engineer for the traffic and electrical engineer for the light.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#258Earlier quoted context omitted.
I imagine that's impossible to do in the software world. Overwhelming majority of software developers are not registered engineers.
Something public safety can be at risk in the software world. Medical devices immediately comes to mind (look up Therac-25). Some software acts are reserved. Most of my friends are registered software engineers.
For sure. And there's safety certifications and regulations for these kinds of things. I have friends who develop for medical devices. Most aren't professional engineers. But there are some and I imagine they're the ones taking on the liability.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#259Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes.
So its almost like there is still a legal standard for what a lawyer is
I'm not sure what your point is. That's exactly what we are saying - there is a legal standard for actually being a lawyer.
But, we are also saying there shouldn't be any repercusions for someone just saying that they are a lawyer in any non-financial, non-professional context. If you go out and say to someone "hey, I'm a lawyer and I am very smart" then this shouldn't be illegal in any way or form, just like saying you are a pope or Bonaparte isn't - you're just making an idiot out of yourself. As long as you don't go and act as a lawyer(try to represent people for money for instance) then knock yourself out. This should be double obvious seeing as we're on the internet, where you can say you are a noble-winning physicist or a NASA engineer and without a way to verify it it matters nothing. It is scummy, immoral, unfair to lie about it? Of course it is. But it shouldn't be illegal.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#260Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let's not oversell the PE or the FE: I took both drunk and completed them in under 3 hours each. The true point of being a professional engineer is that you've satisfied the MINIMUM requirements to be licensed and, therefore, you are licensed by the state to sign off on documents within what you consider your expertise. It relies on you to make that determination with the understanding that you should know better, re…
Don’t undersell it either. The minimum, as you pointed out, is safe. Your capitalization implies “it’s barely acceptable” and any engineer that has passed those tests would know this.
My capitalization means exactly what it says: someone with a license has met the minimum requirements from the state. Nothing else can be garnered from someone possessing a license.
The minimum requirements have, historically, resulted in engineers who put out public facing designs that, more often than not, do not bring harm to the public.
As someone who “has passed those tests” and been practicing for almost a decade, I can tell you first hand that sometimes the guy with a license who is actually at “the minimum” does not always put out something that is safe.