Surely laws regarding who can call themselves A Federal Judge violate free speech too...
Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
171–180 of 309 posts
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
The state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their reputation. They’re the only game in town.
Why would you want more people to use violence? Mob rule is better?
OP does not appear to be advocating violence, but is stating a fact. All laws are enforced by violence. If you disagree, disobey the police at your next meeting with them. You'll find out quickly who is allowed to assault and who is not.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…
Let's not oversell the PE or the FE: I took both drunk and completed them in under 3 hours each. The true point of being a professional engineer is that you've satisfied the MINIMUM requirements to be licensed and, therefore, you are licensed by the state to sign off on documents within what you consider your expertise. It relies on you to make that determination with the understanding that you should know better, re…
Don’t undersell it either. The minimum, as you pointed out, is safe. Your capitalization implies “it’s barely acceptable” and any engineer that has passed those tests would know this.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.
It all comes down to insurance. If your building collapses, the insurance company will want to know if you did every reasonable thing possible to prevent it before they pay out on your policy. One of those things is making sure that the person who designed the building knew what they were doing, i.e. were they a licensed engineer. I think most product companies are essentially self-insured. If Ford releases the Pinto…
Yes, for attritional claims they “self-insure” (often through a captive or equivalent.) But for large claims they buy insurance. This is usually done from global reinsurers.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
A professional engineer has to pass a pretty rigorous test that takes every bit of 8 hours for most folks. I studied for hundreds of hours for mine (not kidding) and it took me two tries to pass. I know great engineers who are trying for the sixth time. Getting an engineering degree is really hard at most colleges. Passing the Fundamentals of Engineering exam is also challenging, but a joke compared to the P.E. exam.…
Let's not oversell the PE or the FE: I took both drunk and completed them in under 3 hours each. The true point of being a professional engineer is that you've satisfied the MINIMUM requirements to be licensed and, therefore, you are licensed by the state to sign off on documents within what you consider your expertise. It relies on you to make that determination with the understanding that you should know better, re…
There isn't one legal definition and it was being used to silence a member of the public pointing out that they are stealing from the public by designing unsafe traffic lights.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
I once worked in the live entertainment industry. We often had engineers sign off on stage/tower structures. When they got the math wrong things fell on heads. Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one. This case essentially removes engineer from the list of recognized professions. That club now only belongs to the doctors and lawyers. Even hairdres…
Completely disagree. It says he can call himself an engineer in a non-professional context. Having a ChBE BS, I am an engineer (although no longer working as one). I am not a Professional Engineer (not a licensed PE). There’s a difference - doesn’t mean I should not be able to call myself an engineer, and I’m sure others w engineering degrees would agree
BS EE here.
I am also an engineer and approach the world with an engineering mindset. And I would never use "Engineer" as part of my title. For me, once it becomes a title/capitalized, it's no longer an adjective but a designation.
My first initial is D and I use that instead of my first name. When people address me as "Dr Casey" I correct them on that too.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#177Always find people amusing who think identity is built around a person currently employed because of their skill-set. I recall talking to a person years ago when I was between jobs as a [job title]. "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm a [job title]." "Oh nice. Where do you [job title] at?" "I'm not [job title]ing anywhere at the moment." "Oooooooh, well! Then you're not a [job title]!" By this logic, you're not a blacksmith i…
Look at all the surnames tied to occupations: Taylor, Smith, Fisher, Miller, Wainwright, Baker, etc. Not saying it's not funny, but it's nothing even close to new.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where I live, people call themselves engineers all of the time, and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation.
> and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation. Which sucks, doesn't it. It's advertising (ie. a lie) that's been repeated so much that it's become accepted. I know many software "engineers". They aren't real engineers, they just didn't like being called software programmers or coders.
From the Wikipedia article on Engineer [1]:
> Engineers, as practitioners of engineering, are professionals who invent, design, analyze, build, and test machines, systems, structures and materials to fulfill objectives and requirements while considering the limitations imposed by practicality, regulation, safety, and cost
This fits a lot of software development (esp. "systems"). The process of developing software is an engineering process, not a mathematical or design process, so it makes sense to use the term "engineer". However, I wouldn't use the term for all programmers, as not all programming does the full process.
In any case, the term "engineer" is very vague and has broadened significantly over time, whereas terms like lawyer and physician have stayed pretty consistent.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?
Järlström didn't claim he was a Professional Engineer (a very specific certification) just an engineer. This case is akin to someone who does wood working in their house (maybe even studied it) calling themselves a carpenter but not a Licensed Carpenter. Speech can never be a crime "They have uttered the untoward words! Imprison them." Speech can breach a contract "You agreed not to yell fire in my theater, you owe m…
>Speech can never be a crime
Speech can be a crime. Google limitations on free speech. The specific example you gave is in fact a crime.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure. I'm just trying to think what would be the negative consequence of someone calling themselves a lawyer or police in a TV interview like here, and I can't think of one, other than the fact that they are making an idiot out of themselves. Like, it shouldn't be illegal.
If someone who calls themselves a doctor or a lawyer goes on TV and gives medical or legal advice, that can cause harm and sets a bad precedent.
Dr Dre advocates marijuana usage...