China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal • Hacker News Board

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#121

Post by throwba43yt » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

rhegart wrote: post #53

vkou wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US had plenty of its own Nazi Germany moments, and - unlike Nazi Germany - which was completely dismantled by the Allies - the repercussions of them are still being felt today across its native and black populations. In more recent history - of the 21st century, at least, China hasn't started any conflicts in the Middle East, that have killed hundreds of thousands of people, and turned millions more into refugees…

Your comment is exactly the false comparisons I was talking about. Get the emotions out of the way and rationally evaluate what you just wrote. China can not start the conflicts because the world will sanction them. Yet they did exactly that to Tibet. They killed so many, took it over and have brainwashed or arrested everyone who clings to Tibetan culture. They invaded India, did you know that? And would have killed…

It is not a false comparison just because you say it is.

I also disagree that China would try to conquer the world.

Sure, they invaded India. So did the British. Are you saying if the UK became a superpower again, they would try to conquer the world like they did before?

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#122

Post by throwba43yt » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

a-nikolaev wrote: post #15

The word "substantial" is very vague and a bad sign for any scientific and evidence-based publication. Then, when such news show up while Trump is trying to make his deal with the Chinese and (it seems) even got a hostage recently, this makes me feel a bit suspicious of this article, especially since its content is pay-walled. (I'm not defending organ-harvesting, which was already reported in the past, but the articl…

I agree. All this “bad” news about China recently seems odd.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#123

Post by matthewmacleod » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

Spidler wrote: post #110

blhack wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We (the U.S) tolerate their disrespect for human rights because we also do not respect human rights I'm sorry but this statement is just absolutely and completely ridiculous. I don't know if you've either never been to The United States, or you've never left The United States, but the difference between the respect that we have for human rights, and the respect that much of the rest of the world has, is stark.

How many children do you hold imprisoned right now? How many children have been defending themselves in courts recently? How many women, trans or otherwise have been suffering at the hands of your anti-women/abortion movement? You don't even prosecute the people who commit atrocities in your own country, much less those that commit them in others. You don't have respect for human rights or values. As an institution,…

Could we all just calm down a little bit with the rhetoric?

The United States has serious and growing problems around its global support for human rights. The domestic policies it exhibits mirror that; there are clearly long-term problems that are deeply worrying.

But support for human rights is not a binary state. The United States has the rule of law, freedom of speech and religion, a functioning judicial system, and an army of human rights specialists who operate freely. It supports many of these initiatives in other countries, both as a society and a government. The fact that the country does many awful things does not mean that other countries should have a free pass to implement arbitrary policies free of criticism.

No country in the world has a perfect record of protecting human rights, but that should not prevent them calling for change elsewhere. I hope deeply that the US fixes its problems soon, but that does not stop me from being aware that organ harvesting and political assassinations are also bad.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#124

Post by snthd » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #90

michaelmrose wrote: post #59

So how many victims are there? CNN said in 2016 that there were 10k legal transplants and 60-100k actual transplants based on looking at actual volume of transplants at the largest hospitals and supposes that executed minorities compose the difference. Keep in mind that one victim could be sufficient to provide fodder for a number of operations. https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting/i... Do we ha…

Don't forget that one body can supply parts for several different transplants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

> Because China lacks an organized organ matching and allocation system, and in order to satisfy expectations for very short wait times, it is rare that multiple organs are harvested from the same donor.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#125

Post by Derek_MK » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:28 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #74

Why does the west continue to tolerate China as a trading partner? China is pretty obviously building their empire. They, as a government, appear to have almost no regard whatsoever for human life. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard whatsoever for national sovereignty. They, as a government, appear to have absolutely no regard for the environment. It just seems completely inevitable to me that…

It's the same reason why everyone wants everyone else to fix climate change: The negative effects from supporting China won't affect the people who actually make the decision to support China.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#126

Post by zachguo » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

A good never-falsifiable story, just like those made up by people who are trying to get and maintain an asylum visa to US.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#127

Post by jjcc » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:30 PM UTC

alehul wrote: post #34

When I was younger, maybe five years ago or so, I was living in Boston and I'd consistently see a pack of Chinese protestors outside the public library at Copley (very popular area) holding up signs, looking to gain attention for this very issue. They spoke to me as best as they could, handed me a pamphlet with hard-to-parse English but nonetheless gruesome descriptions, and asked for my signature along with any othe…

The behaviour of these guys you observed is already implying something: They are a little bit special. If you have a few Chinese friends, ask them if they know about "独运轮". Ask a few, preferablly with no strong political opinions. The guys you met belong to "轮", the last group of the 3.

Together with other 2 groups, "轮" unintentionally built support to current Chinese govenment among oversea Chinese especially young students. If you happened to have chance to meet many oversea Chinese, you can test if it's valid.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#128

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

throwba43yt wrote: post #104

topkai22 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously assuming an avoidance of nuclear escalation, which it is very much in China’s interest to avoid- best estimates say China has less than 300 weapons, not all of which have delivery systems capable of reaching the US and many are potentially targetable by for counterforce strikes. Still an absolutely horrendous toll to pay for an escalation. The US in contrast has 4000 active warheads, with at least 1300 on c…

That’s like saying Arnold and Carl are standing waist deep in a pool of gasoline. Arnold has 4000 matches, Carl has 300. Who’s going to survive the fire?

[deleted]

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#129

Post by elefanten » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #127

alehul wrote: post #34

When I was younger, maybe five years ago or so, I was living in Boston and I'd consistently see a pack of Chinese protestors outside the public library at Copley (very popular area) holding up signs, looking to gain attention for this very issue. They spoke to me as best as they could, handed me a pamphlet with hard-to-parse English but nonetheless gruesome descriptions, and asked for my signature along with any othe…

The behaviour of these guys you observed is already implying something: They are a little bit special. If you have a few Chinese friends, ask them if they know about "独运轮". Ask a few, preferablly with no strong political opinions. The guys you met belong to "轮", the last group of the 3. Together with other 2 groups, "轮" unintentionally built support to current Chinese govenment among oversea Chinese especially young…

This sounds interesting, but doesn't help understand what you're trying to explain. At least not right now, at my computer. Are there any written explanations you could point us to?

edit: Google translates those three characters as "exclusive wheel"... the mystery continues

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#130

Post by marvin » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

josephpmay wrote: post #35

pasbesoin wrote: post #13

U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China. With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simult…

At first look, from a Western perspective, this is 100% clear-cut morally bad. But I've also learned a limited amount about the Chinese moral perspective in college, and it can be a useful exercise to examine how someone who doesn't have a Judeo-Christian/Locke moral framework may view this practice. In some ways, the harvesting of organs from political prisoners can be viewed as the trolley problem. Killing one poli…

You could take almost anyone, really. Just measure every citizen according to their contributions to society, and when four productive and useful citizens have need of a heart, a liver, two kidneys and a pancreas between them, just harvest a citizen that's not as productive as all of these four combined.

Of course, you maximize utility by choosing someone who does not contribute a lot to society, and _ideally_ someone who is a net negative. That's a win-win situation. The West is incredibly wasteful with our pie-in-the-sky dreamy research on artificial organs, when such a net positive solution is readily available.

It's frightening that a moral argument can be made along these lines. Does anyone really subscribe to this view? I am unfamiliar with Eastern philosophy, but this seems ludicrous.