China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal • Hacker News Board

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#61

Post by cabalamat » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

topkai22 wrote: post #44

thinkloop wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These things only work when there's a large asymmetry in power, otherwise the cost is too high. US >> N.Korea, US >> Iran. China's too powerful and important to do anything serious, we will have to likely deal with this on a case-by-case basis like we do Saudi Arabia, hopefully generating enough soft pressure and potential inflammation that they become fearful of creating a Khashoggi incident.

The US would break its sanctioning tools if it took on China unilaterally with sanctions, but if they managed a coalition that included the EU and a few others it could work.

This would require the USA being a lot more willing to act co-operatively with other countries than its present leadership seems capable of.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#62

Post by kurthr » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

thinkingkong wrote: post #41

DannyB2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word 'harvested' is so much nicer than 'stolen'. That makes the 'optics' better. (i feel sick now)

On the contrary. Harvesting organs is terrifying.

Just add one more word... harvesting Human organs, and the alliteration sends a shiver down you spine.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#63

Post by kseistrup » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

alehul wrote: post #34

When I was younger, maybe five years ago or so, I was living in Boston and I'd consistently see a pack of Chinese protestors outside the public library at Copley (very popular area) holding up signs, looking to gain attention for this very issue. They spoke to me as best as they could, handed me a pamphlet with hard-to-parse English but nonetheless gruesome descriptions, and asked for my signature along with any othe…

I've seen them at Folkemødet 2018 on the Danish island Bornholm in the Baltic Sea.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#64

Post by zanny » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

eric_b wrote: post #16

miles wrote: post #9

Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

> "According to the reports, political prisoners, mainly Falun Gong practitioners, are being executed "on demand" in order to provide organs to recipients." Wild... I had no idea this was going on. There are a lot of things about China that I disagree with, but this might be the worst thing I've heard so far.

China, like Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia - any nation that is a totalitarian state - will commit endless atrocities so long as those in power believe they can get away with it. Be it their own people or other nations.

And they do get away with it. All so I can buy a phone for 20% less that it would cost to manufacture in my own country. A few million dead, disfigured, tortured, scarred, raped. Billions living under thought control. Chump change to keep my clothes dirt cheap so the Walton family can buy a few more islands in the Caribbean while Jeff Bezos accumulates enough money to buy the moon.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#65

Post by pizza » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #45

vkou wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ground war with China will leave most of the United States a nuclear crater.

From Google results: "China is estimated by the Federation of American Scientists to have an arsenal of about 260 total warheads as of 2015, which would make it the second smallest nuclear arsenal amongst the five nuclear weapon states acknowledged by the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons." "As of 2017, the U.S. has an inventory of 6,800 nuclear warheads; of these, 2,800 are retired and awaiting dism…

Additionally China's arsenal's cumulative megatonnage is ~294 MT (as of 2009) whereas the US's cumulative megatonnage is ~1430 MT (as of 2014).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_and_weapons_of_mass_dest...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_weapons_of_m...

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#66

Post by excalibur » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #45

vkou wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A ground war with China will leave most of the United States a nuclear crater.

From Google results: "China is estimated by the Federation of American Scientists to have an arsenal of about 260 total warheads as of 2015, which would make it the second smallest nuclear arsenal amongst the five nuclear weapon states acknowledged by the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons." "As of 2017, the U.S. has an inventory of 6,800 nuclear warheads; of these, 2,800 are retired and awaiting dism…

> No one wins, it's who loses the least.

Which is also no one. Whether or not humanity is completely wiped out, this is an extinction-level event, and the entire nation-state system that spawned it becomes meaningless in the aftermath.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#67

Post by throwaway2048 » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:29 PM UTC

vatueil wrote: post #60

reaperducer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine how much more efficiently the Chinese government could identify involuntary donors if it had better access to people's personal information. Perhaps through a search engine of some kind. One with a harmless-sounding name. Maybe "Dragonfly" would be a good name.

I guess it wouldn't be HN if we didn't tie every story back to our own issues. In this case, if Google ever does return to China I doubt the authorities would find it more useful for such purposes than existing sources such as iCloud, Bing, and Baidu already are.

Hey, at least everyone else is doing it too!

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#68

Post by jerf » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:30 PM UTC

rhegart wrote: post #27

The false dichotomy of comparing the “evils” of USA whenever horrifying news comes out of China is worrying. Stretched to the extreme it’s the equivalent of bringing up Obama droning killing innocents when comparing The Nazis and Hitler. Our minds conflate the 2 things as bad and we compartmentalize them as such together. There is a world of difference between the 2. Imagine if the world order was not created by US a…

Very seriously, if you make a list of why you hate the Nazis, and then ask how many of those things apply to the current Chinese government, and carefully research the matter rather than just consulting what you may happen to think you know about the current Chinese goverment (i.e. not falling prey to "if I haven't heard of it in my newsfeeds, it doesn't exist")... well... actually it's pretty hard to tell them apart.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#69

Post by sonnyblarney » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #50

sonnyblarney wrote: post #32

Interning millions of people on the basis of their ethnicity/religion, and then harvesting their organs ... now where have we heard this one before? I won't make the direct comparison because it'd normally seem hyperbolic in 2018 ... but this is happening in 2018. If this is true, it has to change the narrative quite firmly.

Why are you singling out Tim Cook? All world leaders (both political and corporate) that appease China are to blame.

I believe that since Apple is claiming moral imperative every day in their ads and interviews, and because they have material relationships with China (which governments merely facilitiate) - and that Apple & co are the primary beneficiaries of 'global China' (not for example, Justin Trudeau) ... then they have the first move.

World leaders behind the scenes are very wary of China, they're a) afraid of speaking out and b) have to be diplomatic on some level.

The rubber hits the road (i.e. the 'money') is Apple.

And yes - of course world leaders should be far more aggressive about this.

Sadly, as aggressive as Trump can be, I'll bet he turns a blind eye if he gets a good trade deal.

Though I'm no fan of his, I'll bet he could garner an instant 10% boost in global approval by requiring the closure of those camps as part of any future trade deal. And the thing is - he actually does have enough leverage to get away with it. It would be a major, major international coup of the humanitarian kind ... something so many of his more social/lefty peers could only dream of doing. It'd be nice to seem him try, but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#70

Post by zanny » Thu, Dec 13, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

josephpmay wrote: post #35

pasbesoin wrote: post #13

U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China. With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simult…

At first look, from a Western perspective, this is 100% clear-cut morally bad. But I've also learned a limited amount about the Chinese moral perspective in college, and it can be a useful exercise to examine how someone who doesn't have a Judeo-Christian/Locke moral framework may view this practice. In some ways, the harvesting of organs from political prisoners can be viewed as the trolley problem. Killing one poli…

Of course its "reasonable" to argue when you are on the receiving end of the organ donations and not the end being put to slaughter for parts.

This is just the extreme end of it though. All states ruled by those who don't believe in the value of human life irrespective of what value that life is to them is at least capable of such atrocity and at worst presently committing it.