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China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

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Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#11
From the article, "The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China heard evidence in public in London on 8-10 December. A seven strong panel questioned 30 witnesses, including refugees from China, doctors, and investigators.". Clearly, solid and irrefutable conclusions on such a serious matter only need 3 days of hearing from 30 witnesses.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#13
U.S. perspective, writing this.

I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut.

And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China.

With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simultaneously, we've hollowed out our own system -- the checks and balances, as well as raw job counts.

The U.S. is far from perfect. Nonetheless, literally, physically "ripping the life" from one person, as a judgement, to benefit another. That is some symbolism. And a hallmark of what our own society has at least publicly considered to be "dystopia".

----

P.S. I responded to a reply with the following, but the child comment was deleted before I finished. It was a more than fair point about what happens (over here), and the opportunity for response allowed me to better qualify the... "us versus them" -- or perhaps lack of a "versus" -- present in my original comment. So, copy/pasta of that reply of mine:

My "the U.S. is far from perfect" is an understatement -- one I worried about. I agree with your point, and I find the behaviors you point out abhorrent. Prison for profit; Econ. 101 teaches you what you're going to get from that.

The U.S. has, however, been pretty aggressive in regulating organ transplants. When they happen. How limited, hopefully ethical, supplies are distributed.

Of course, over this hangs the spectre of economic disparity, corresponding health insurance disparity and health care access...

Yes, the U.S. is making plenty of life-altering, life-destroying decisions. The "death panels" that actually exist but don't make it into the political discussion (i.e. not the ginned up political phantoms).

And, some of those disparities seem to have been severely exacerbated, domestically -- progress actively reversed -- through off-shoring, outsourcing, and the winner-take-all, short-term reward.

As I grow more depressed writing this, well, at least we aren't ripping out "prisoners'" organs -- yet.

(We go overseas and buy nice foreigners' kidneys, for that.)

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#15
The word "substantial" is very vague and a bad sign for any scientific and evidence-based publication.

Then, when such news show up while Trump is trying to make his deal with the Chinese and (it seems) even got a hostage recently, this makes me feel a bit suspicious of this article, especially since its content is pay-walled.

(I'm not defending organ-harvesting, which was already reported in the past, but the article must be specific about what has or has not happened, and should not use such vague statements.)

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#16
post #9

Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

> "According to the reports, political prisoners, mainly Falun Gong practitioners, are being executed "on demand" in order to provide organs to recipients."

Wild... I had no idea this was going on. There are a lot of things about China that I disagree with, but this might be the worst thing I've heard so far.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#17
wow...

“During the 2000s, analysis of various sources of emerging evidence led to the conclusion that people who practised Falun Gong were being killed to provide the organs fuelling China’s transplant boom. “It is common for Chinese transplant professionals to parrot the Communist Party line saying that those who have been speaking out . . . have a ‘political agenda.’” In 2006 a whistleblower claimed that more than 4000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs at the hospital in China where she worked. Subsequent independent investigators, including David Kilgour, former Canadian secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific, David Matas, an international human rights lawyer, and the investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann, have concluded that such practices occurred

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#18
China harvested organs from political prisoners on substantial scale, says tribunal Richard Hurley The BMJ Forced harvesting of organs from prisoners of conscience in China has been “substantial,” says an interim judgment of an independent “people’s tribunal” set up to determine whether the country’s transplantation practices breached international criminal law. The former English judge Geoffrey Nice QC, the tribunal’s chair, said after a three day evidence gathering session, “We, the tribunal members, are all certain, unanimously, beyond reasonable doubt, that in China forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience has been practised for a substantial period of time, involving a very substantial number of victims . . . by state organised or approved organisations or individuals.” The tribunal found that the practices breached the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, including articles 3 (right to life), 6 (recognition as a person before the law), 7 (equality before the law), 9 (not to be subject to arbitrary arrest), 10 (full equality to a fair and public hearing in determination of rights), 11 (presumption of innocence), and 5 (torture). The Chinese government and the Transplantation Society, which has “official relations” with the World Health Organization and offers “global leadership in transplantation . . . and guidance on ethical practice,” had not submitted evidence. The Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China heard evidence in public in London on 8-10 December. A seven strong panel questioned 30 witnesses, including refugees from China, doctors, and investigators. Its full judgment, due early next year, could have major implications for doctors and institutions worldwide that collaborate with China on transplantation related activities. The Chinese ambassador to the UK and prominent doctors in China involved in transplantation were invited repeatedly to give evidence but had not responded, said Nice. The tribunal invited evidence from the current and former presidents of TTS. Three said that they would not attend the hearings, he said. Nice emphasised that the tribunal remains open to receiving evidence through its website (https://chinatribunal.com/call-for- evidence). Jean-Pierre Mongeau, executive director of the Transplantation Society, told The BMJ, “While TTS will not be providing a testimony at this time, we have been a firm supporter of the reform in China, and we applaud the laws that have been enacted.” In 2007 China banned commercial organ trading,1 and a 2011 law insisted on consent.2 In 2015 China vowed to halt the harvesting of organs from death row prisoners (not prisoners of conscience).3 4 The tribunal was convened by the non-profit International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China (ETAC), which includes lawyers, academics, ethicists, doctors, researchers, and human rights advocates. However, the tribunal is independent from the coalition, and the tribunal’s panel is working “pro bono,” Nice said. Susie Hughes, executive director of ETAC, said, “From 2000, there was a rapid increase in the number of transplants [in China]. The source of the organs underpinning this high level of activity has never been explained in a credible way by the Chinese government. “During the 2000s, analysis of various sources of emerging evidence led to the conclusion that people who practised Falun Gong were being killed to provide the organs fuelling China’s transplant boom. “It is common for Chinese transplant professionals to parrot the Communist Party line saying that those who have been speaking out . . . have a ‘political agenda.’” In 2006 a whistleblower claimed that more than 4000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs at the hospital in China where she worked. Subsequent independent investigators, including David Kilgour, former Canadian secretary of state for the Asia-Pacific, David Matas, an international human rights lawyer, and the investigative journalist Ethan Gutmann, have concluded that such practices occurred Sitting on the panel alongside Nice are Martin Elliott, professor of cardiothoracic surgery at University College London, Andrew Khoo, who has a private law practice in Malaysia, Regina Paulose, a US attorney who focuses on international criminal law and human rights, Shadi Sadr, an Iranian human rights lawyer, Nicholas Vetch, a UK businessman, and Arthur Waldron, a US historian and professor of international relations at the University of Pennsylvania. Nice said, “It was decided not to have a panel of people already knowledgeable about, or particularly concerned about, allegations of forced organ harvesting that have already been made” Informal people’s tribunals fill a gap, he said, when formal national and international bodies failed to deal with allegations of serious crimes by states or state supported bodies. One For personal use only: See rights and reprints http://www.bmj.com/permissions Subscribe: http://www.bmj.com/subscribe example was Bertrand Russell’s 1967 tribunal that investigated US policy in the Vietnam war.

Re: China harvested organs from political prisoners, says tribunal

#19

U.S. perspective, writing this. I find this is an area where a "moral decision" is rather clear-cut. And it highlights the... "amorality", at best, of much of our relationship (whether speaking at the personal level or the state/economy level) with contemporary China. With our technology, we've enabled and empowered a political and economic structure that has not... "sorted its shit" as part of achieving same. Simult…

Indeed. What is the solution? Economic sanctions (I'd argue yes)? UN resolutions? (Useless) Boots on the ground? (Physical force, while preferably a last resort, is always an option).

I'm starting to warm to the idea of using tariffs and other punitive measures to drag manufacturing back to US shores.

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