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Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

blogs.windows.com

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Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#261

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #175
jackfraser wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they do that when Powershell is literally that, but refined beyond what's commonly available on Linux? I'm not great with it yet, but it feels intuitively like a step forward to be able to pass objects around instead of spending so much of my time using awk-ward 40 year old tools to tease text out of various fields.

PowerShell is great for when you want to interact with Windows APIs (local and remote) and/or work with objects. I have no problem with using it for those purposes. But terminals and the tooling around them have always revolved around text . My point is that since Microsoft is (a) including OpenSSH, (b) upgrading their terminal infrastructure to support VT100 and ANSI codes, and (c) investing in WSL, it would make ma…

> But terminals and the tooling around them have always revolved around text

That's because they're from the 70s, when literal terminals with no real computing power were connected to a centralized system that did all the work. They're archaic and silly.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#262

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

mycall wrote: post #139
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has come a really long way recently towards moving to CLI-based management. Starting with Server 2016, the default installation method of Windows Server no longer includes most of the GUI (called the Desktop Experience), leaving you with a command prompt window in the middle of the screen instead. An even thinner version of Windows Server, Nano Server, is also available, and includes even less GUI, being mu…

How does RSAT compare to the new Windows Admin Center?

WAC is a lot like the new settings panels Microsoft keeps pushing. Bloated and with half the functionality of their predecessor.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#263

Post by TimTheTinker »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #261
TimTheTinker wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PowerShell is great for when you want to interact with Windows APIs (local and remote) and/or work with objects. I have no problem with using it for those purposes. But terminals and the tooling around them have always revolved around text . My point is that since Microsoft is (a) including OpenSSH, (b) upgrading their terminal infrastructure to support VT100 and ANSI codes, and (c) investing in WSL, it would make ma…

> But terminals and the tooling around them have always revolved around text That's because they're from the 70s, when literal terminals with no real computing power were connected to a centralized system that did all the work. They're archaic and silly.

> They're archaic and silly.

They may seem that way to some, but they still provide a surprisingly versatile and useful user interface. Terminal programs and scripts are easy and fast to write, easy to interact with, easy to change, and trivially portable across POSIX platforms; hence, when writing a tool for oneself or another developer, most developers will usually opt for a CLI-based UI. Terminal program UIs are also very stable (in addition to being text-based), making them arbitrarily composable into scripts and workflows without fear of them breaking in the future.

Modern graphical UIs are usually easy to use, but they are far-removed from the code and tools that are used to write them or interact with their APIs programmatically. Terminal program UIs, however, are very close to the environment they're built in -- so the line between using a terminal program and interacting with it programmatically is delightfully blurred.

I use a multi-paned iTerm2/zsh window every day as a front-end developer (I'm on a Mac running macOS Mojave). I can't imagine working without it. There are a lot of good reasons npm, git, and other popular mainstays in modern development workflows are terminal-based.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#264

Post by berlinstartup »

nineteen999 wrote: post #186
donavanm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know if that means they didnt understand it. It reads like they were trying to solve the underlying problems with a different approach. SSH is an awesome tool & capability as a relatively high level network channel. The defacto “shell” approach leads to a lot of problems when used as a management device. It encourages adhoc, unstructured, and opaque changes. Managing your hosts via Secure Shell simply leads to…

Where does your opinion on Ansible lie then? It's a systems configuration and orchestration tool that by default, uses SSH as the transport. For Ansible users, Windows getting OpenSSH is a huge win, since we (presumably) will no longer have to jump through all the hoops WinRM throws you in order to configure Windows machines remotely.

Ansible is exactly the problem. Used by a bunch of ignorant cowboys who deserve what they get.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#265

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #263
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But terminals and the tooling around them have always revolved around text That's because they're from the 70s, when literal terminals with no real computing power were connected to a centralized system that did all the work. They're archaic and silly.

> They're archaic and silly. They may seem that way to some, but they still provide a surprisingly versatile and useful user interface. Terminal programs and scripts are easy and fast to write, easy to interact with, easy to change, and trivially portable across POSIX platforms; hence, when writing a tool for oneself or another developer, most developers will usually opt for a CLI-based UI. Terminal program UIs are a…

Terminal is not the same thing as CLI or TUI. I don't have a problem with either of the latter interfaces, I have a problem with archaic emulation of long obsolete hardware with in-band signaling.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#266

Post by TimTheTinker »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #265
TimTheTinker wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're archaic and silly. They may seem that way to some, but they still provide a surprisingly versatile and useful user interface. Terminal programs and scripts are easy and fast to write, easy to interact with, easy to change, and trivially portable across POSIX platforms; hence, when writing a tool for oneself or another developer, most developers will usually opt for a CLI-based UI. Terminal program UIs are a…

Terminal is not the same thing as CLI or TUI. I don't have a problem with either of the latter interfaces, I have a problem with archaic emulation of long obsolete hardware with in-band signaling.

Sorry, misunderstood. Yes, VT100 is rather archaic. Is there a more modern alternative?

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#267

Post by mixmastamyk »

nailer wrote: post #208
nojvek wrote: post #177

OpenSSH with powershell is such a great combo. I was very skeptical about powershell, but after writing many scripts I’m a convert. Powershell does so many things nicer than bash. It feels like a real programming language but still not loosing its scripting roots. For running tests for a GUI application which requires us to spin thousands of Machines in parallel, manage job queues, interact with Windows UI automation…

Yep. I've been using bash since the 90s, and really got into Powershell a couple of years ago (I now run it on macOS too). The amount of people who try and explain bash basics to me when I say I use Powershell is staggering. I'm quite good at regexs thanks, I just like my scripts picking keys 'select' and 'where' rather than scraping with grep / awk etc. The amount of (poor) pwsh clones on Linux is a good testament t…

Scripts over say, 10 lines or so shouldn't be written in bash. That's when moving up to Python or Ruby makes sense.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#268

Post by mixmastamyk »

Jaruzel wrote: post #229
_hao wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As other comments mentioned, just use the Linux sub-system + I would add Cmder as an alternative to the horrible native console. Edit: Cmder - http://cmder.net/

I have zero issues with the native cmd.exe. However, I have changed the following: * Set the default font to Droid Sans Mono (Slashed) [1] * Set the scroll back to 9000 lines, and the default width/height to 132x50. * Used ANSI to colour code the prompt. * created a small tool called su.exe that re-launches cmd.exe as Administrator (it can't be done inline unfortunately) And then I use openSSH (the Windows 10 bundled…

Sure with a half dozen fixes you get an approximation of a modern terminal. GP is talking about the console, not the shell however. The console is a character grid designed around VGA hardware, not built on streams as a proper terminal is.

CMD is another horribly-designed feeble tool compatible with COMMAND.COM, acceptable back in the eighties. Yes, its fine for running a program or two here and there if you've got low expectations. You can get work done on 640x480 too, but we don't suffer that today. ;-)

I recommend this series of posts that will explain how poor the situation has been on Windows, and how it is improving:

https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2018/06/20/wind...

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#269

Post by com2kid »

emit_time wrote: post #84

As someone who just started working as a developer and is using windows for the first time in 4.5 years, I can't believe how much I miss ssh and command line tools for everything... ssh keys would solve so much trouble with scripting and credentials... Also sudo...

From a developer perspective, Windows does SSH keys just fine. You can't SSH into Windows boxes (yet apparently!) but you can SSH out of them a-ok.

Window Key, type "optional features" and install the OpenSSH client.

Re: Windows Server 2019 Includes OpenSSH

#270

Post by h1d »

mscasts wrote: post #2

That is really something, before as a dev coming from linux when I first was about to login on a Windows Server I didn't understand how to do it since it were no SSH. Administrating the server via a GUI always felt backwards somehow. Why waste CPU cycles on rendering a UI when the CLI is so great (on linux)?

It's not the CPU cycle but lag that makes me feel like I'm on a laptop from 15 years ago.
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