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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#211

Post by sroussey »

megraf wrote: post #207

I work at very large OEM. We've run the numbers, and key fob exploits are _extremely_ rare. (most) Modern keys use rolling keys that are verified by the ECU, making cloning (let alone initial pairing) extremely time consuming. However, Keyless-go key fobs _can_ be captured and replayed (not necessarily exploited). 99.99% of the time that cars are stolen (which we find much more common in Europe due to small jurisdict…

Why clone? Why replay? You just need signal boosters so the key and the car think they are next to each other.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#212

Post by entee »

gnicholas wrote: post #181
HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

> If I were the insurance companies, I'd be putting pressure on the car companies And also give car owners an incentive to keep their keys safer, given how many vehicles out there are vulnerable to this. Just fixing this for new cars is only half the solution. I remember back in the 80s my parents got a discount on their insurance for installing a third brake light in the back window of their old Camaro. If my insura…

Could simply putting the thing in a foil/metal lined drawer in your entryway do the trick?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#213

Post by asdff »

siffland wrote: post #184

There is a lot of great technical discussions here of ways to possibly solve the issue. The real problem points back to the lackluster security the auto industry is used to. Only if some sort of accountability or software security testing requirements are enforced this will get fixed. They have to have a mandatory recall if your Audi accelerates quickly by itself (that was in the early 80's i think), but no recall fo…

IIRC for the Audi 5000s it was because the brake and throttle were too close and your foot or floormat frequently got stuck on top of the throttle. People would shift out of park not realizing this and go flying, not any kind of software or security issue.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#214

Post by Terr_ »

ams6110 wrote: post #98
pofilat wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies pressure drivers who have these misfeatures, drivers pressure car manufactures. See also: discounts for anti-theft tech and airbags.

The latest insurance "incentive" is a tracking device in your car that tracks when and where you drive, how fast, how hard you corner and stop, etc. I've declined this but expect that insurers will push for it to become mandatory. They would love to be able to charge unsafe drivers more money, and in the abstract I don't have a problem with that, but the tracking is creepy.

Or to put a combative point on it: "How much money do I get when you abuse this data for any purpose other than your exclusive safety metrics?"

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#215

Post by asdff »

westbywest wrote: post #166
paulie_a wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving a car unlocked is sometimes safer, while not foolproof it reduces the likelihood of getting your window smashed to loot the vehicle for valuables (and non valuable items)

Leaving car doors unlocked is SOP in urban corridors with high incidence of petty theft. I.e. don't leave attractive objects in your vehicle, and leave it unlocked so that would-be thieves can learn it themselves w/o smashing a window. The problem here being able to start the engine wirelessly, not simply getting in.

My neighborhood just got hit with a string of robberies from inside cars. Not one window was smashed; the thieves can simply use a thin piece of metal slid between the window and door to enter vehicles about as quick as someone with a key, just like what police do if you locked your key inside the car.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#216

Post by kazinator »

kazinator wrote: post #178

> Key fobs are constantly broadcasting a signal that communicates with a specific vehicle, he said, and when it comes into a close enough range, the vehicle will open and start. It's a poor design for the system to take any access-escalating action without an explicit command from the user that initiates a secured transaction that is resistant to MITM. It's poor design to assume that the range is based on raw signal…

> take any access-escalating action

I see I made a naive statement here. Let's consider the access-reducing action of the vehicle locking itself when the fob becomes distant. That is also open to exploit; if the attackers boost the signal when they spot a driver walking away from the car, then the locking neglects to take place as the driver enters a building and goes out of sight.

However, auto locking a car based on proximity is justifiable as a fall-back measure to explicit locking with a button. The rationale is that if the user forgot to lock, it is probably better to do it for them than to do nothing.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#217

Post by asdff »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #175
josefresco wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All you have to do is keep the fob inside a shielded case at home and you're fine. Because we all have Faraday cages in our homes, and I'm sure the salesman who sold the car also made the customer aware of this vulnerability. /sarcasm.

>Because we all have Faraday cages in our homes Yes, most people who own cars new enough to have this vulnerability own microwave ovens.

So you have to pull your keys out of your pocket and stick them in your microwave every time you enter your house just to have the convenience of not needing to take them out of your pocket when you approach the car.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#219

Post by pixl97 »

tomp wrote: post #203
HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

> Better to pay out for a vehicle theft, vs. actual injuries from a collision. What do you mean? It's not as if anyone will be driving less... the insurance company will pay for a new car, the family will buy a new car (presumably they need it), and still be just as statistically likely to collide with the new car.

Insurance companies have more of an incentive to make cars safer because of the larger liabilities of injury.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#220

Post by asdff »

toyg wrote: post #127
aj_g wrote: post #4

It seems to me like there is often just as much creativity in thievery as there is in entrepreneurship.

It is astonishing the lengths some people will go to not earn a honest salary.

Everything is risk vs. reward in life.
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