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Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

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Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#201

Post by rainbowzootsuit »

josefresco wrote: post #16
z2 wrote: post #5

Two factor authentication for cars, here we come! Though, searching for this phenomenon shows articles at least 3 years old warning to get Faraday cages or otherwise wrap fobs in aluminum foil. But do they really transmit all the time, or do they contain accelerometers or something to prevent battery from being wasted?

2FA seems to make sense. Maybe a 4-6 digit pin that would be optional for those in high risk areas/situations. > But do they really transmit all the time, or do they contain accelerators or something to prevent battery from being wasted? I'm curious about this as well. A family member has an older Nissan with a keyless fob and I don't recall them ever having to replace batteries/keyfobs.

Some fobs use an inductive coil to recharge a battery within the key while the key is in the ignition.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#202

Post by toss1 »

swift532 wrote: post #192
toss1 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is not reasonable for the car to stop suddenly without the key. Even if it stops by going into an emergency limp mode, this could seriously endanger the occupants by leaving them in a dangerous traffic situation, a dangerous location, or with other issues. This is why every car company has examined it and chosen to not do it. This feature actually saved huge inconvenience for us once. While visiting the other…

As someone who turns their car on by inserting their key into a slot in it, all this seems quite convoluted just for the convenience of pushing a button. I don't understand why the car would even let you accelerate at all if the key isn't inside the actual car (even if it's just in your pocket, if you insist on pressing a button).

The key has to be in it to start it, but once started, the key can go away and it will continue to run.

(& yes, I still start my car with a key that is inserted, and mine also has a clutch & manual H-pattern 5-speed)

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#203

Post by tomp »

HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

> Better to pay out for a vehicle theft, vs. actual injuries from a collision.

What do you mean? It's not as if anyone will be driving less... the insurance company will pay for a new car, the family will buy a new car (presumably they need it), and still be just as statistically likely to collide with the new car.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#204

Post by nkrisc »

jamescostian wrote: post #116
nkrisc wrote: post #105

I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

Yes, I was making a joke, but I was also semi-serious. I personally wouldn't mind that the car unlocks based on the fob's proximity, but requires insertion of the key for ignition. I currently drive a 2009 car with the usual key fob and my biggest issue with it is not having to insert it to start the car, but unlocking the doors while my hands are full. Once I'm seated in the driver's seat I'm not carrying anything and starting the car is no problem.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#205

Post by nkrisc »

stronglikedan wrote: post #153
jamescostian wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

But then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.

Sounds like she needs a better purse.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#206

Post by asdff »

stronglikedan wrote: post #153
jamescostian wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if this is a joke about old keys being better, but I'd argue you could have the benefits of new keys and old keys combined if you just made it so that new keys have to be inserted into some compartment inside of cars, where they are authenticated by those cars. You can imagine a fob with a USB that has a different authentication code than the wireless one it sends out, and unless the USB is plugged into…

But then my mom would have to dump out her purse every time she wanted to unlock her car.

safety pin near the top + carabiner = instant easy access keys

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#207

Post by megraf »

I work at very large OEM. We've run the numbers, and key fob exploits are _extremely_ rare. (most) Modern keys use rolling keys that are verified by the ECU, making cloning (let alone initial pairing) extremely time consuming. However, Keyless-go key fobs _can_ be captured and replayed (not necessarily exploited). 99.99% of the time that cars are stolen (which we find much more common in Europe due to small jurisdictions), someone will break a window, steal your keys, and drive your car away.

(wireless) Key fob capturing and replaying require far more equipment than NFC PVC card (credit card) cloning.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#208

Post by [deleted] »

kokx wrote: post #200
kazinator wrote: post #178

> Key fobs are constantly broadcasting a signal that communicates with a specific vehicle, he said, and when it comes into a close enough range, the vehicle will open and start. It's a poor design for the system to take any access-escalating action without an explicit command from the user that initiates a secured transaction that is resistant to MITM. It's poor design to assume that the range is based on raw signal…

RTT measurements are hard to make reliable with wireless systems. You don't want to set the bounds to tight, to avoid locking out the car owner in circumstances with a lot of interference. But neither do you want a signal booster to be in those bounds. But there are better solutions. I've heard about a car maker (I think it was BMW, but don't quote me on that) that put an acceleration sensor in the key fob. It would…

[deleted]

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#209

Post by asdff »

ams6110 wrote: post #82
HorizonXP wrote: post #72

This happened to a family member of mine, here in Toronto. Lost their gorgeous M5. Their kid normally wakes up in the middle of the night, except this time, he freaked right out like he was scared. They were wondering what was going on with him, when one of the parents heard the M5 turn on (it's pretty distinct). "That's my car!" His wife said, "Naw, you're crazy, no way." Sure enough, enough, key fob attack and thef…

What strange is, I can see unlocking the car and even starting it with this attack -- but do the cars not continually (or at least every minute or two) revalidate the presence of the key? Once they got very far away from the house, the car should shut off. Or so I would think.

That seems pretty dangerous. Why not just have the car beep at you?

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#210

Post by jdironman »

jasomill wrote: post #169
ghaff wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And don't get me started on center consoles. At least my last rental supported CarPlay and I was pleased to discover that it pretty much just worked. Other systems I've had seemed far more intent on downloading all my contacts rather than doing something useful from an entertainment or navigation perspective.

Heh, that reminds me of my last rental, where, not half an hour off the lot, the touchscreen sound/navigation/??? system got stuck in some sort of reboot loop. Cursory online research suggested the problem was a known firmware bug that was unfixable without a service appointment. A reasonable person would probably have turned around and exchanged the car with the rental company at this point. I am not a reasonable pe…

This is also the kind of 'hacker' mindset that got me interested into technology. But instead of fixing to see how it worked, I broke it apart to see how it did.
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