Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles • Hacker News Board

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#161

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

15155 wrote: post #103

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals seeking to commit property crime generally go to great lengths to avoid possible confrontations with people. Stealing one more BMW that week is not worth the risk of a 9mm hole in your chest. Breaking into someone's home when you are all but sure they are there (because their car is in the driveway and you want their keys) is just begging for a confrontation. Someone breaking into your house with the expect…

The country of topic is Canada, where the risk of someone protecting their hard-earned property with lethal force does not exist.

A few years ago, a local hospital reported a suspiciously bad hand injury to the police.

It turned out that the patient had committed a home invasion, only to be greeted by a homeowner wielding a replica katana. The invader tried to defend himself by holding the blade...

I can easily see that situation becoming lethal to the invader if the homeowner really wanted it to.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#162

Post by figers » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 6:58 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #105

I imagine improvements to the key fob could be made that would require a mechanical coupling with the car in order to start it. That would circumvent this attack.

My Tesla requires a pin to drive like a phone

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#163

Post by lozaning » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #147

lozaning wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats essentially how my car works right now, it's push to start, but you've got to have the fob slotted into a thing in the dash for the push to start button to actually work.

What vehicle do you have?

A 9 year old BMW without the comfort access package.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#164

Post by cambalache » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:00 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #147

lozaning wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats essentially how my car works right now, it's push to start, but you've got to have the fob slotted into a thing in the dash for the push to start button to actually work.

What vehicle do you have?

Mine too! But only because the battery on my fob died and I am too poor now to replace it. Frankly I kinda like it that way, it makes me more conscious or the damn fob (I used to just drop it anywhere in the car).I have a Tucson 2011 FWIW

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#165

Post by blang » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

This article gets written fairly often:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/16/style/keeping-your-car-sa...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17733870

https://abc7news.com/archive/9079852/

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2018/02/23/58...

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#166

Post by westbywest » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

paulie_a wrote: post #154

nine_k wrote: post #140

I think convenience here is fundamentally at odds with security. The convenience here is that the system requires no confirmation from the driver, no physical interaction with buttons, handles, keys, etc. The driver just opens the door and starts the engine. This allows for a trivial remote sniff-and-replay attack, not unlike copying a key temporarily. I bet not having a lock on the door would be even more convenient…

Leaving a car unlocked is sometimes safer, while not foolproof it reduces the likelihood of getting your window smashed to loot the vehicle for valuables (and non valuable items)

Leaving car doors unlocked is SOP in urban corridors with high incidence of petty theft. I.e. don't leave attractive objects in your vehicle, and leave it unlocked so that would-be thieves can learn it themselves w/o smashing a window. The problem here being able to start the engine wirelessly, not simply getting in.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#167

Post by secabeen » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #31

I'm confused. Are there cars where the fob can automatically start the car, without any button presses, just from proximity? How did they not realize that was a bad idea?

Yes, the Tesla Model S and X keyfobs do not require any button presses.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#168

Post by com2kid » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

blattimwind wrote: post #142

ryandrake wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is insane. Please tell me this is an option that non-insane consumers can get their car without. Fortunately I drive an old car so this does not affect me—yet. If I ever have to replace mine, this looks like yet-another-misfeature I’ll have to look out for to avoid.

It's standard with many "premium" brands (e.g. BMW, Audi, ...)

My 2015 Kia has it.

It is pretty much standard across all cars now days, except maybe the very bottom of the line models.

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#169

Post by jasomill » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #92

hasbot wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a problem going the other way too. I drive an older vehicle and rented a car. I nearly had to ask the attendant how to start the car. Then I was entirely surprised when I stopped at a light and the engine turned off.

And don't get me started on center consoles. At least my last rental supported CarPlay and I was pleased to discover that it pretty much just worked. Other systems I've had seemed far more intent on downloading all my contacts rather than doing something useful from an entertainment or navigation perspective.

Heh, that reminds me of my last rental, where, not half an hour off the lot, the touchscreen sound/navigation/??? system got stuck in some sort of reboot loop. Cursory online research suggested the problem was a known firmware bug that was unfixable without a service appointment.

A reasonable person would probably have turned around and exchanged the car with the rental company at this point.

I am not a reasonable person.

Instead, I headed directly to a truck stop and purchased a heavy-duty power inverter, dropped the back seat, and crammed my portable PA speaker into the trunk, connected to the car's trunk-mounted battery through the inverter and to my iPhone through a shielded audio cable run from the trunk to the front seat.

The result sounded far better than it should have, and what it lacked in convenience (I had to pop the trunk to power it down) and channel separation (one speaker = mono), it more than made up for in dB SPL.

(for the record, I've also repaired eBay purchases that arrived in worse-than-advertised condition rather than returning them, for no other reason than that learning how to fix things is more fun than going through the hassle of returning them)

Re: Thieves boosting signal from key fobs inside homes to steal vehicles

#170

Post by secabeen » Wed, Dec 05, 2018, 7:10 PM UTC

I've been surprised that no vendor has put a motion/vibration sensor in their keyfobs. I know they're pretty power constrained in keyfobs, but it seems like a pretty sensible protection to require the fob to be not sitting still on a table to do a proximity-only unlock.