I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On • Hacker News Board

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#61

Post by jnbiche » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:13 AM UTC

To be clear, fake and illegal medical advertisements make their way onto Google, too:

https://www.wired.com/2013/05/google-pharma-whitaker-sting/

(This is only the most infamous case from the past 10 years)

So if the post author's only argument for DragonFly is that China needs Google because China needs a search engine that doesn't promote fake meds, it's a false premise.

EDIT: Changed 5->10 years since the case in question was from 2009-2011. Also, as another comment points out[1], a Chinese state medical clinic was responsible for the Baidu fake medicine incident. It's highly unlikely that Google would turn down a government agency from its ad buying. So again, not seeing a huge difference between Baidu and Dragonfly, other than the quality of their results (but not their ethics).

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18574669

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#62

Post by AlexandrB » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:13 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #37

AlexandrB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative consequences are that Google are the best at cataloguing and searching information. This expertise can now be leveraged by the Chinese government to search for dissidents. Edit: Do you honestly think that once the Chinese government has some leverage over Google (because they now make a portion of their revenue from the Chinese market) they wouldn't use that to get additional concessions? As an example,…

Sure, and right now Baidu is doing that for them. Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,…

> Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do".

This is an argument akin to "I'm joining the system so I can change it from the inside".

This can work, but you need leverage. What leverage would Google have over the Chinese government in this case? Say what you will about the current Chinese leadership, but they're not stupid and they know what Google is capable of. If they think Google is dragging they're feet why wouldn't they just block Google again?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#63

Post by curt15 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:13 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #7

z0r wrote: post #5

China can allow access to Google whenever they choose.

But they won't. And that has real consequences for actual people. Google has the option to improve those people's lives by going there, even if it means bowing to the demands of Chinese censors. Nothing is gained by staying out. China isn't going to magically change its opinion on censorship because Google won't enter their market. The objections of the Google employees are shortsighted and naive.

The fact that a giant like Baidu can get away with showing false adverts indicates a deeper problem than can be solved just by Google going to China.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#64

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:13 AM UTC

There is argument made for trading with authoritative states when they take tiny steps towards the right direction and increasing living standards bring change themselves. Taiwan and South Korea are good examples of this kind of progress.

But as China is becoming economically more powerful and tightening up it's control at the same time. Deng Xiaoping was no means liberal, but he made changes into right direction. Xi is walking even these small moves backwards.

In the end China will have their own internet and it will be heavily censored. It's up to Chinese let Google in as Google. Not to ask Chinese version of Google.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#65

Post by curt15 » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:15 AM UTC

darawk wrote: post #37

AlexandrB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative consequences are that Google are the best at cataloguing and searching information. This expertise can now be leveraged by the Chinese government to search for dissidents. Edit: Do you honestly think that once the Chinese government has some leverage over Google (because they now make a portion of their revenue from the Chinese market) they wouldn't use that to get additional concessions? As an example,…

Sure, and right now Baidu is doing that for them. Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,…

>By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,

And how can companies establish a major presence in China unless they are aligned with the Chinese government?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#66

Post by vokep » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:15 AM UTC

andrewflnr wrote: post #22

No matter whether you agree with them or not, asking someone to sear their conscience is one of if not the most corrosive things you can do to them and to humanity at large. The author probably didn't mean it quite that way, but that's what this post is asking of googlers. Don't do that.

Is it though? I definitely disagree with the author, but I don't know if they're asking really to sear conscience as much as offer the perspective of their own conscience. They are not asking googlers to be ok with everything China does but are arguing that Google removing itself from China causes more harm than good. They're wrong (I think) but, its perfectly reasonable to make such an argument if one believes it.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#67

Post by yadongwen » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:16 AM UTC

I'm pretty sure the data DragonFly may collect is much much less than many companies in China are already collecting. The government literally knows everything about you in real time.. which hotel you are in, what websites you have visited, what messages you just sent, etc. So Google won't be able to help Chinese government anyway. On the other hand Google indeed can help the people a lot with high quality search results.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#68

Post by scarcely » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

morpheuskafka wrote: post #60

ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

Not only that, but to the extent practical they should support subverting it (ie. making their sites available via hidden services, etc.). Would we likeiwse argue that working with the Nazi government (with the exception of red cross type relief aid and ceasefires) was acceptable for American businesses?

If you see no difference between the Chinese government and the Nazi government, you should perhaps consider advocating for war (unless you are a non-interventionist)

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#69

Post by publub » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

I'm really glad someone with a Chinese background finally spoke up about this. If you look at the anti-DragonFly post, you'll notice that there are almost no Chinese names on the list. Every Chinese citizen I've talked to is pro-DragonFly, myself included.

DragonFly will probably be the largest step to democratizing information that has ever happened for the Chinese people. It's a huge step forward. It won't change the fact that the Chinese government already does censor information, and that it does spy on its people. This isn't new. DragonFly will just provides Chinese citizens so much more information that we can't get otherwise without resorting to VPNs.

For the people in China who aren't dissidents (a large chunk of the 1.4 billion, or 4x the population of the US), this will be an entirely positive change that could save millions of lives.

Please, please launch DragonFly.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#70

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 01, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

jnbiche wrote: post #61

To be clear, fake and illegal medical advertisements make their way onto Google, too: https://www.wired.com/2013/05/google-pharma-whitaker-sting/ (This is only the most infamous case from the past 10 years) So if the post author's only argument for DragonFly is that China needs Google because China needs a search engine that doesn't promote fake meds, it's a false premise. EDIT: Changed 5->10 years since the case in…

[deleted]