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I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

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Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#51

Post by j2kun »

darawk wrote: post #37
AlexandrB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative consequences are that Google are the best at cataloguing and searching information. This expertise can now be leveraged by the Chinese government to search for dissidents. Edit: Do you honestly think that once the Chinese government has some leverage over Google (because they now make a portion of their revenue from the Chinese market) they wouldn't use that to get additional concessions? As an example,…

Sure, and right now Baidu is doing that for them. Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,…

What part of Google's behavior thus far makes you think they'll drag their feet?

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#52

Post by yourbandsucks »

bicubic wrote: post #44
yourbandsucks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolution would kill tens of millions, minimum. Compared to that, continuing to enjoy the greatest rise in living standards in human history doesn't look half bad.

Ahhh yes, the 'we're in the dystopian dictatorship so deep that it's too big to fail' argument. There's always a human cost to revolutions. That doesn't justify supporting and perpetuating one of the biggest threats to freedom in the entire world.

We invaded Iraq under that logic..

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#53

Post by darpa_escapee »

darawk wrote: post #37
AlexandrB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative consequences are that Google are the best at cataloguing and searching information. This expertise can now be leveraged by the Chinese government to search for dissidents. Edit: Do you honestly think that once the Chinese government has some leverage over Google (because they now make a portion of their revenue from the Chinese market) they wouldn't use that to get additional concessions? As an example,…

Sure, and right now Baidu is doing that for them. Baidu is likely not as good at it as Google, but Baidu is also much more likely to comply willingly. Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do". By abdicating that responsibility to an actor like Baidu, who is much more aligned with the Chinese government,…

> Google can drag their feet and build low quality censorship/anti-privacy tools for the Chinese government, and simply say "sorry it's the best we could do".

Why would they? They're out to make money and they'll make much less money by making enemies with the CCP.

We can also look at history: American companies have no problem doing business with authoritarian and repressive regimes. Sometimes they even prop them up.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#54

Post by ehsankia »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #3

This is probably the first time I see something from a concerned Chinese citizen. I applaud this truthfully, it also gave me an alternative view about ( why) entering the market and what some Chinese think.

Honestly every single actual Chinese citizen I've spoken too is for Dragonfly. The only people that I've seen against it are Westerners who love projecting their values and feeling outraged in the place of others.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#56

Post by pishpash »

andrewflnr wrote: post #22

No matter whether you agree with them or not, asking someone to sear their conscience is one of if not the most corrosive things you can do to them and to humanity at large. The author probably didn't mean it quite that way, but that's what this post is asking of googlers. Don't do that.

Google pulling out was one of the best and last of Google's "Do No Evil" opus. Whatever the true reasons, with that decision, you can say something about Google as a company and you can say something about China as a country. One example is all that is needed sometimes. Without that, you get moral equivalency and all the attendant devolution.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#57

Post by claudiawerner »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #52
bicubic wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahhh yes, the 'we're in the dystopian dictatorship so deep that it's too big to fail' argument. There's always a human cost to revolutions. That doesn't justify supporting and perpetuating one of the biggest threats to freedom in the entire world.

We invaded Iraq under that logic..

A misapplication of logic (i.e the claim that the U.S. invaded to instill "freedom and democracy") does not invalidate the logic (i.e fighting for freedom is a good thing).

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#58

Post by codemac »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #45
codemac wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were making utilitarian arguments, notably the famous trolley one. Just because you can't stop something, doesn't mean you should actively support it.

Yes, they were making utilitarian arguments about the welfare of the people affected. It's awfully easy to stand on principle when it's the other guy who sacrifices for it.

> It's awfully easy to stand on principle when it's the other guy who sacrifices for it.

Is the other guy me? or are the other guys those killed by the PRC?

You would sacrifice them to search Google, I would sacrifice your Google searches for them. We do not have to agree.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#59

Post by carlosdp »

ehsankia wrote: post #46
ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own. 2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than s…

> Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them?

This assumes most of their citizens have all the information about the implications, which is very unlikely, for the very reason everyone is wary of Google re-entering China.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#60

Post by morpheuskafka »

ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

Not only that, but to the extent practical they should support subverting it (ie. making their sites available via hidden services, etc.). Would we likeiwse argue that working with the Nazi government (with the exception of red cross type relief aid and ceasefires) was acceptable for American businesses?
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