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I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

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Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#41

Post by codemac »

Leary wrote: post #31
codemac wrote: post #10

If we counted the number of people the PRC has killed by finding them through their "great" firewall, does the OP think that number is less than bad baidu medical ads? I don't understand is the false equivalency between baidu's advertising and PRC's notorious human rights violations. This post doesn't address any of the concerns brought up by the original letter they decry?

Your argument would make sense if ending DragonFly would end the Great Firewall too.

They were making utilitarian arguments, notably the famous trolley one.

Just because you can't stop something, doesn't mean you should actively support it.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#42

Post by j2kun »

traek wrote: post #38
AlexandrB wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The negative consequences are that Google are the best at cataloguing and searching information. This expertise can now be leveraged by the Chinese government to search for dissidents. Edit: Do you honestly think that once the Chinese government has some leverage over Google (because they now make a portion of their revenue from the Chinese market) they wouldn't use that to get additional concessions? As an example,…

There’s a big difference between Google making data available to the Chinese government, which is what Dragonfly would do, and Google making their expertise at cataloguing and searching information available to the Chinese government, which has not been reported. The only information that the Chinese government would have access to from Google is info they already have from Baidu.

Dragonfly catalogues and indexes searches for dissident topics, linking them to the searcher's phone number. Literally a search engine for dissidents.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#43

Post by darawk »

claudiawerner wrote: post #40
yourbandsucks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolution would kill tens of millions, minimum. Compared to that, continuing to enjoy the greatest rise in living standards in human history doesn't look half bad.

>Compared to that, continuing to enjoy the greatest rise in living standards in human history doesn't look half bad. This is extremely poor reasoning. An overall "bad" thing does not become "good" or justified because it has improved conditions in some way. By the very same token, slavery has both good sides and bad sides, and by your dismissive style, we ought not to consider the bad sides - the slaves should contin…

>? his is extremely poor reasoning. An overall "bad" thing does not become "good" or justified because it has improved conditions in some way. By the very same token, slavery has both good sides and bad sides, and by your dismissive style, we ought not to consider the bad sides - the slaves should continue to enjoy the greatest rise in living standards (having food and shelter provided by the master) and the slave owners should continue to enjoy the greatest rise in profits in human history - isn't it clear that everyone wins?

It's pretty clear that the question is whether a thing is good on balance. We all agree slavery is bad on balance. China, on the other hand, who has authoritarian policies, but has simultaneously lifted billions of people out of extreme poverty, is much more mixed.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#44

Post by bicubic »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #25
AnaniasAnanas wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nothing is gained by staying out If a lot of companies decided to refuse to follow China's oppressive methods (and thus making life slightly worse for some of the people of china) it might slightly push the residents of china towards revolting and gaining more freedom. This is all theoretical of course, I doubt that anything like that could happen in real life.

Revolution would kill tens of millions, minimum. Compared to that, continuing to enjoy the greatest rise in living standards in human history doesn't look half bad.

Ahhh yes, the 'we're in the dystopian dictatorship so deep that it's too big to fail' argument.

There's always a human cost to revolutions. That doesn't justify supporting and perpetuating one of the biggest threats to freedom in the entire world.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#45

Post by yourbandsucks »

codemac wrote: post #41
Leary wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument would make sense if ending DragonFly would end the Great Firewall too.

They were making utilitarian arguments, notably the famous trolley one. Just because you can't stop something, doesn't mean you should actively support it.

Yes, they were making utilitarian arguments about the welfare of the people affected.

It's awfully easy to stand on principle when it's the other guy who sacrifices for it.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#46

Post by ehsankia »

ForrestN wrote: post #27

The problem with this logic is that it treats the malevolent dictatorship as a given. If you believe that there will be concentration camps, dissident crackdowns, and absolute censorship in China forever, this is a reasonable position. If you believe there is any hope for the Chinese people, foreign entities should focus on aiding the regime and the political status quo as little as possible, hypothetical ad business…

1. No, but you have a much better chance of actually bringing change if you're in there, than if you leave it on its own.

2. Almost every single Chinese citizen I've spoken to is for this project. I find it a bit ironic that all the opposition is from Westerners who love to feel outraged in their place and assume they know what's best for others. Why not let them decide what they want for their country, rather than shoving your ideals on them? You're not the one who has to live without dozens of Google services that only have shitty alternatives, they are.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#47

Post by TACIXAT »

fermienrico wrote: post #33
codemac wrote: post #10

If we counted the number of people the PRC has killed by finding them through their "great" firewall, does the OP think that number is less than bad baidu medical ads? I don't understand is the false equivalency between baidu's advertising and PRC's notorious human rights violations. This post doesn't address any of the concerns brought up by the original letter they decry?

It’s a ridiculous rhetorical rebuttal without ever mentioning the dystopian motives of the entire Chinese tech industry puppetted under the Xi Jingpin’s vision. From Baidu to Tencent, everyone is in bed with the government. Weak arguments are covered up with emotional rhetoric about deaths and such. Please do not respond to my comment about “what about US Federal agencies in bed with the FANG”. Before we discuss, Chi…

If they're in China they probably don't have the luxury of bringing up those points in their argument.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#49

Post by rrdharan »

sn41 wrote: post #36
mathnmusic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, the most intolerant wins. For good or for bad.

I think this is a very cynical view of history. Good things do happen, with sufficient resistance. Civil Rights being a prime example.

That’s the “for good” part of the parent comment. Civil rights protestors were unwilling to tolerate / were intolerant of the status quo situation, to the point of being willing to be attacked with fire hoses and dogs.

Re: I’m Chinese, Google’s DragonFly Must Go On

#50

Post by fermienrico »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #39
fermienrico wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a ridiculous rhetorical rebuttal without ever mentioning the dystopian motives of the entire Chinese tech industry puppetted under the Xi Jingpin’s vision. From Baidu to Tencent, everyone is in bed with the government. Weak arguments are covered up with emotional rhetoric about deaths and such. Please do not respond to my comment about “what about US Federal agencies in bed with the FANG”. Before we discuss, Chi…

You like using Bing when you visit? Don't ever miss YouTube? Or checking your Gmail without a VPN?

I have my company’s VPN access so it’s not a problem for me. But contacting people is really difficult without WeChat. You could do EVERYTHING with this one app.
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