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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#761

Post by colordrops »

pompousprick wrote: post #755
petee wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish more people knew that workers fought and died for those rights. Its one thing to say maybe you'll quit, or skip your pay check for change, its another to actually put your life on the line for what you know is right.

Since China is known for its countless human rights violations, Are these Google employees also going to... 1. Give up their Chinese-Manufactured iPhones/Android Phones? Tablets? Laptops and workstations?? 2. Give up watching movies/shows on their Chinese-manufactured TVs?? 3. Stop wearing Chinese-made iwatches/fitbits/etc.?? 4. Boycott silicon valley startups that have accepted chinese investments? 5. Boycott every…

There's a difference between boycotting products made in China and protesting against building technologies that enable dictatorial regimes. They do not deserve to be conflated.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#762

Post by ygjb »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #754
cultus wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tech workers don't need a union to negotiate compensation, they're compensated fine already. Software one of the highest margins of any industry. They can afford to pay more, especially since they are constantly whining about "shortages" of tech workers. http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/...

> They can afford to pay more Which is why they already do pay more than other industries. The best argument you have against that is the anti-poaching shenanigans they've engaged in -- but that's already illegal, so the answer there is a courtroom rather than a union.

No, it really isn't. The court requires someone to notice the pattern, or be aware of the pattern, and be willing to risk their reputation. With a union, the onus is on the business to act right, or risk labour action where the SRE folks walk out, and all the little blinky lights turn off.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#763

Post by jpster »

shareometry wrote: post #259
alangibson wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

> A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I believe this is key. If more folks at more organizations were brave like this and willing to take the risk, a good chunk of the problems our civilization is facing might be greatly improved.

Bargaining power. (Organized) working humans have it...but it will erode as robots and algorithms take on more and more work. An argument for striking while the iron is hot. (No pun intended.)

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#764

Post by scarface74 »

dymk wrote: post #751
scarface74 wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like the same excuse that companies and the government used in the 80s when people were trying to get the government to impose sanctions on South Africa over apartheid. Signing a piece of paper knowing that it is of no personal risk to you is virtue signaling. Why should that get a company to change? What will be the consequences if they go ahead with thier plan? A more harshly written letter?

Google entering China is morally equivalent to South African apartheid? Okay, I think we have fundamentally different views on what kind of "stand" this warrants. The clear implication is that these people will quit the company if Google goes forward with Dragonfly.

No, I’m saying that companies used the same excuses and reasoning for doing business with oppressive regimes - that you can make a bigger difference by staying in than leaving.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#765

Post by callmekit »

educationdata wrote: post #362
politician wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Chinese social credit points would the family members of the signer lose if a Googler were to sign this letter?

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/12/665597190/families-of-the-dis... "If you are a Uighur, you automatically lose 10 points," recalls Seytoff. "If you pray? Another 10 points. You've been overseas? Another 10 points. You have relatives overseas? Another 10 points. If you're 50 or below, you're unsafe and you go to a camp." By simply having relatives overseas, you lose 10 points. Now imagine how many points you will lose i…

I'm confused by these exact point values. My understanding that the social credit system is not yet implemented, and it's unlikely it will be a number, probably more a set of black lists for different purposes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#766

Post by carapace »

dane-pgp wrote: post #682
carapace wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What should a police crew use against a criminal equipped with high caliber armor piercing guns? The Army?

I wonder how this policy would interact with something like the Posse Comitatus Act. Would it effectively require applying the label "terrorist" or "national security threat" to any criminal who shows they are prepared to use lethal force against a law enforcement officer?

Yeah, life isn't "Die Hard", if someone is using "high caliber armor piercing guns" against the local PD, then classifying them as "domestic terrorists" and calling in specialists to deal with them seems appropriate to me.

Police have to deal with enough crap that they shouldn't be expected to handle paramilitary situations as well, is what I'm saying.

As a counterexample, remember the "Bundy standoff"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff That's the kind of situation where the Posse Comitatus Act means you don't send in the Army. However, if they had shot a bunch of people I'm sure they would have had to face at least the National Guard, eh?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#767

Post by mbrumlow »

tjoff wrote: post #518
mbrumlow wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on their charter. People don't park money in a company simply to have the stock value drop or stay the same -- with exception of companies who pay out dividends. Most companies charters talk about their relationship and obligations to the shareholders -- people don't invest in companies that don't intend on increasing in value.

Again, value doesn't have to be monetary. Shareholders has the right to expect return on their investment, yes. If the company delivers on their ambitions and values then that is the shareholders reward.

I don't think we are going to agree any time soon. The law is messy and it seems different cases can be signed supporting both of our points.

Thanks for a civil disagreement and exchange.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#768

Post by nostrademons »

joshuamorton wrote: post #701
nostrademons wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all wealth in Silicon Valley comes from equity price appreciation. Google stock has appreciated 7x since 2009, but Facebook has appreciated 38x in the same time period, Yelp 13x, Netflix about 35x, Apple about 6-7x. I think the boom in web & mobile startups is basically over at this point, but there's a new boom in cryptocurrency & AI startups that's just beginning, along with a social movement (multiple socia…

This is only really true at startups. At a bigco, your on paper comp can be 250 or 350k annually in cash equivalents. That quickly generates wealth even if you are given only cash. You're comparing 2 pre-ipo companies to Google and apple.

Still true at BigCo. Total comp as a senior SWE at Google when I left (almost 5 years ago - it's more now) was something like ~$175K cash, ~$125K stocks + options, ~$50K bonus. With the 5x appreciation in stock that was going on while I was there, the stock portion could be worth $625K/year by the time it all vested. That's as employee 20,000+.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#769

Post by nostrademons »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #713
nostrademons wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was actually thinking of growth as in "professional growth" - getting promoted faster, having a chance to learn more skills, doing things you wouldn't be able to do. I was thinking of the equity growth in terms of "pay more".

OK, so I'm curious: do many companies in the bay area pay more for engineers (on either an expected value or a worst case basis) than Google does? Sure, some of those startups will make their early employees very very rich, but most will fizzle or fail.

By reputation, Netflix pays more cash than Google. Like I said in the other subthread, though, the majority of your compensation in a tech company is in equity. The biggest price appreciation in equity is for younger, faster-growing companies. When I was at Google, that was largely Facebook; by the time I'd left, it was companies like AirBnB, Pinterest, Medium, and Snapchat (though I dunno how well folks at the latter 3 are doing nowadays).

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#770

Post by profalseidol »

alangibson wrote: post #97
nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

You deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

> You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

If we're talking about Ghandi, the man that fought for Indian rights (but not for Africans and in fact was a racist against them). And that is probably for the best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTxNSU2k6l4

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