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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#741

Post by petee »

kiliantics wrote: post #600
shareometry wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I believe this is key. If more folks at more organizations were brave like this and willing to take the risk, a good chunk of the problems our civilization is facing might be greatly improved.

Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated.

I wish more people knew that workers fought and died for those rights.

Its one thing to say maybe you'll quit, or skip your pay check for change, its another to actually put your life on the line for what you know is right.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#742

Post by ineedasername »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #716
kiliantics wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated.

> Worker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated. The problem with modern unions, particularly in tech, is that the legacy structure is inapt for current problems. Tech workers don't need a union to negotiate compensation, they're compensated fine already. They don't need a huge bureaucratic structure for engaging in long-term detailed negotia…

How do you get and pay for the infrastructure of this direct democracy without resources paid for by dues? How do you get the minority in any vote to go along with the result when there isn't any common binding agreement such as a contract that enforces majority rule?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#743

Post by AlexCoventry »

BurningFrog wrote: post #710
apostacy wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is well aware of the spyware that the Chinese govt is using to oppress it's ethnic minorities, but they don't lift a finger to thwart it. They don't blacklist the app that the government requires Muslims in Xinjiang to have on their phones at all time[1]. They could easily blacklist it. How far is Google willing to go to be friends with China? Mass detainment and ethnic cleansing are well within the realm of p…

Here is a thought for you: If Google actually were to do anything to help they Anne Franks of China, do you think they would announce it to the world to debate on HN, or do you think they would do it in secret?

I'm sure they're unhappy about the dragonfly publicity, so I don't understand the point you're making.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#744

Post by ardy42 »

dylan604 wrote: post #483
taude wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this was 139 out of 88K employees [1]. Doesn't seem like that many? How do we interpret the other 87K+? [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/273744/number-of-full-ti...

There's some statistic that says if one person is willing to speak out, then there's X number of people that agree but are unwilling to speak out. Don't know the accuracy of that, but I've taken it to heart and have been willing to be one of the first to speak out on multiple occasions at multiple jobs. Sometimes things change for the better. Sometimes things don't change, and I force a change by leaving. If nobody s…

> There's some statistic that says if one person is willing to speak out, then there's X number of people that agree but are unwilling to speak out.

I've heard this before. I'm not sure if it's a statistic or just a saying. What's the standard formulation?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#745

Post by ezrast »

pavelrub wrote: post #608
ipsa wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can solve this "if against Z, then what about X"? Think of the user. Does a user benefit from being able to clear a permanent record, long after punishment has been served? Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? You can be for the right to be forgotten (and admit to its abuses by politicians and rich hucksters), and against government censorship. This distinction is powerful and therefor oft…

> Does a user benefit if Google facilitates government spying? Yes. Chinese users will most definitely greatly benefit from having a censored Google in China instead of having just a censored Baido. The only people who won't benefit from it are self entitled 20-year-old Google employees across the ocean who in reality don't give a shit about Chinese people, what they want, or how the average Chinese person feels like…

Your use of the term "condescending" as you paint the picture of elite Western saviors uplifting the poor, rotting Chinese clamoring for access to modern technology is pretty ironic.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#746

Post by roywiggins »

tomschlick wrote: post #691
ed_elliott_asc wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do Americans seem to do everything they can about people with guns, except take away their guns?

Because we have a constitutional right to said guns so we don't take removing them lightly. That said if someone has any history of violence, crime, or mental disorder I'm 100% in favor of removing access to weapons.

There was no Constitutional right to carry a gun- or to own a gun- until 2005, and the 2005 Heller decision only covered keeping handguns in the home. Exactly how far the right extends beyond that is very much not settled law.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#747

Post by AlexCoventry »

rmc wrote: post #501
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.

How long does it take to get a sysadmin up to speed? And how much money do they lose while their websites are unavailable? What happens if YouTube.com doesn't work for a week while they get up to speed?

TIL keeping google running is a matter of two-a-penny UNIX sysadmin skills. The SRE book was a fraud!

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#748

Post by ardy42 »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #585
jkaplowitz wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been a long time since my statistics and econometrics courses, but one conclusion that's definitely unwarranted would be to assume that the rest disagree with the signatories. People who speak up on an issue will always be a small fraction of the larger population of people who share the same opinion.

People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters. If that were true, then their silence can definitely not be construed as any kind of tacit agreement, or even disinterest. How many Chinese citizens (or people otherwise su…

> People downthread have remarked on the lack of Chinese signatories, commenting on how the Chinese government tracks their citizens abroad. With ramifications for their family and friends as actual, real possibilities, according to some commenters.

Even as an American with no family in China, I'd be slightly worried that putting my name on such a list might prevent me from getting a visa to visit the PRC. They've shown a willingness to factor politics into visa decisions:

https://www.ft.com/content/b1bd2aec-e333-11e8-8e70-5e22a430c...

That guy didn't even express a stance, like these Google employees have, he just happened to be the acting leader of the club when a speaker the PRC opposed was scheduled to give a talk.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#749

Post by AlexCoventry »

grecy wrote: post #178
nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's ver…

Corporations are explicitly tyrannies. Check out Corporate Confidential for a flavor of what a typical corporate employee could expect for signing a letter like this.
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