We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly • Hacker News Board

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#501

Post by rmc » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:46 PM UTC

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #168

tokai wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"? Collective action. They can hire 14 new guys, but they won't have any to instruct the new employees in their work.

While I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.

How long does it take to get a sysadmin up to speed? And how much money do they lose while their websites are unavailable? What happens if YouTube.com doesn't work for a week while they get up to speed?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#502

Post by surfcao » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

I understand they want to hold the principles they value, but practically, I think it will do good to Chinese living there to have Google's presence in China, by providing a not-so-much-censored alternative/competitor to Baidu etc.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#503

Post by cwkoss » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:47 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #417

One thing I've wondered about "don't be evil" is: what stories does the company tell itself about how that value gets put into practice? Any value which actually drives organizational behavior in the real world is going to be complex -- complex enough that it cannot be fully conveyed in a 3-word-phrase. This is especially true when the phrase includes such a not-agreed-upon word as "evil". So the ways that the organi…

They have been walking back on the "don't be evil" motto recently.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#504

Post by omegaworks » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #255

lostgame wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, clearly, the larger issue here is the false idea that the USA is a proponent of free speech or human rights. I would certainly never in a million years hope anyone would seriously claim the US to be the greatest country in the world.

I hate many things about what the US is becoming--or has always been--but it does have some of the strongest free-speech rights in the world (though less so in recent decades as other nations catch up), and the world's highest public support for freedom of speech. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/freedom-of-speech-cou...

The Trump administration has stumbled backwards very publicly with regard to the people that the framers intended for free speech rights to protect: journalists. From overt anti-journalist rhetoric[1], to possible collusion in the murder of US national Jamal Khashoggi[2], a journalist critical of the Saudi regime. "Free speech" has been co-opted so effectively by the far-right movement that the same people who wave it around to defend debate of genocide simultaneously advocate for the prosecution of journalists.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35EWlJMmO4s

2. https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1064718127903268864

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#505

Post by vkou » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:48 PM UTC

rashomon wrote: post #327

projectramo wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to be cynical, but did another company take over that work for them? Did the police get their MRAPs?

If that one employer made it public that they chose not to deal with MRAP repair, I would wholly choose to do business with them and spread the word that they have are a responsible corporate citizen like wildfire.

And you'd have half your city boycott it because they refuse to support the boys in blue.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#506

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #486

nostrademons wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "values over profits" approach was always more of a recruitment tool than a PR tool. It did give a nice PR boost, but realistically Google's been the best choice of search engine since it came out in 1998. They don't need additional customer goodwill for people to keep using them, they just need to continue to give good results for esoteric queries. Since 2005, though, good engineers have had lots of options for…

> Since 2005, though, good engineers have had lots of options for where to work, many of which pay better or have more growth potential than Google. Growth probably, but very few actually pays better than Google considering all the perks and work life balance you would get from working for Google. And since the startup boom is almost over, it is even more so like that now...

Almost all wealth in Silicon Valley comes from equity price appreciation. Google stock has appreciated 7x since 2009, but Facebook has appreciated 38x in the same time period, Yelp 13x, Netflix about 35x, Apple about 6-7x.

I think the boom in web & mobile startups is basically over at this point, but there's a new boom in cryptocurrency & AI startups that's just beginning, along with a social movement (multiple social movements, actually) that's just beginning and will likely need communication technology to organize.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#507

Post by _Nat_ » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

amatecha wrote: post #395

Puer wrote: post #38

I considered working at Google last year after a recruiter reached out to me, but their decision to backtrack on their promise in China changed my mind. I do not morally condemn anyone who works at Google. I have many good friends that are both bright engineers and undeniably good people that work there. I just feel that as someone who's family is Taiwanese, I cannot in good consciousness support the company. I let t…

Yeah, I have ignored recruiters hiring for companies I have moral qualms in regards to, despite the jobs being undoubtedly quite lucrative. Haven't ever let them know about my moral aversion though.

Sounds like a good call.

It's much easier to excel in the pursuit of something you believe in. Seems like folks who accept jobs that they don't believe in are liable to become increasingly demotivated and eventually burned out.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#508

Post by DanBC » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #465

RickS wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, and not sure this is what OP's talking about, but I have examples. First, anything piracy related. Previously you could search something like "albumname zip rar torrent" and get vast lists of downloads. It's unclear whether the presence of scam links or the illegality of filesharing prompted the removal of valid results for this class of searches, but it's nonetheless true that this type of search returned us…

>"albumname zip rar torrent" Your complaint about their service is that they've made it more difficult for you to break the law?

When searching for roms Google will now return sites full of malware rather than sites offering the rom.

I don't mind that they're blocking rom sites. I do mind that they don't have the courage to just say "We're not going to return anything for those terms".

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#509

Post by mtw » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #416

mtw wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google's motto used to be "Don't be evil", until Oct 2015. They were generally doing the good things. I'm not sure Google has any values right now, unless somebody corrects me.

To quote Google's code of conduct as it exists today: > And remember… don’t be evil, and if you see something that you think isn’t right – speak up! https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct/ Media headlines from the time gave the impression that it was removed, which was absolutely false.

Between 2015 and April 2018, it was in the preface.

In April 2018, it was moved from the preface/beginning to the last end of code of conduct.

If it was really important to the company, there's no reason to push it towards the bottom, where most people would miss it.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#510

Post by mbrumlow » Tue, Nov 27, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #500

mbrumlow wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry, I think both you and Lynn Stout, are wrong, regardless of her credentials -- she sort of is making a name of her self by swing this sort of nonsense -- so her articles are self serving. And yes, we can define shareholder value -- its the stock price. But I see your point and why I have talked about the grey area of what is the best move. But you would be hard pressed to find a group of shareholders who wh…

If the companies value and ambition is to maximize the stock price then the stock price is a good metric. If the companies value is something else then stock price isn't really a good metric. It will also attract shareholders that share those values and thus going against them will cause an uproar.

It really depends on their charter. People don't park money in a company simply to have the stock value drop or stay the same -- with exception of companies who pay out dividends.

Most companies charters talk about their relationship and obligations to the shareholders -- people don't invest in companies that don't intend on increasing in value.