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AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

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Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#401

Post by Dylan16807 »

piva00 wrote: post #373
Dylan16807 wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a tangent, but all the roads I've seen labeled 30mph or 35mph would be quite safe to take at 45. The flow of traffic is 5mph over anyway. But this is with residential roads universally at 25mph. I'm not sure what kind of road he was on.

How do you determine "safe to take at 45"? Kinetic energy increases quadratically to speed, so your braking distance is much larger and doesn't scale linearly to speed so, no, just because you feel your car can safely take those roads at 5-10mph over the limit doesn't mean it's safe, the environment dictates the speed limit, not the road conditions per se.

> How do you determine "safe to take at 45"?

I look at the roads that do have speed limits of 45mph.

> the environment dictates the speed limit

Yep! And the roads I'm talking about are built in the same way with the same environment as the 45mph roads.

I'll back down my "all" to about "90%" though, I remembered a short road where 35 actually fits.

But in general, if we accept that the 45mph roads are actually safe at 45mph, then there's a lot of 35mph roads would be equally safe at 45mph.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#402

Post by nitrogen »

CJefferson wrote: post #240
nitrogen wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scaling fines up to higher incomes for things that don't really matter (jaywalking, minor traffic violations) seems antithetical to the individualistic core of American culture. We typically try to equalize society by raising the floor for the many, rather than lowering the ceiling for the few.

Depends what you think the fines are for. If they are to discourage behaviour, it makes sense to me to try to make them equally discouraging to everyone, which requires scaling.

The time spent while pulled over is a pretty big discouragement to everyone. Time cost scales with wealth.

But victimless "crimes" don't need punitive discouragement the way other harmful activities might. Jaywalking, speeding, turning right from the left lane, these things happen hundreds of times a day in a city, and spottily enforced huge fines are not likely to address whatever societal harm these activities might cause. There are probably better ways to spread and encourage the small social norms that allow society to function. Leave large fines for large harm.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#403

Post by thefringthing »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #361
toomanybeersies wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urban speed limits aren't set by what speed your car is safe to drive at, but rather what speed is safe that you're less likely to hit pedestrians and other cars.

A road has to be designed a certain way based on the speed. You can't just put up a speed limit sign, and speed limit signs are very often not based on what's safe.

You don't seem to be addressing the criticism of your argument, which is that urban speed limits are determined by likelihood of collision with another car, a bicycle, or a pedestrian in the event of an unexpected need to brake hard. This depends on more than just the physical engineering of the road.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#404

Post by madrox »

lisper wrote: post #112
madrox wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because our current justice system never hands out false positive cards today. The real question should be if this is better than the false positive rate we have today, though that’s probably unknowable. At least when AI fails, it fails spectacularly.

No. Sometimes AI fails spectacularly, and sometimes it fails banally (not to be confused with benignly). But when it fails spectacularly it makes the papers. When it fails banally you never hear about it. Today society has a healthy skepticism of AI because it's new and untried. But some day that will change. AI will get better, and the spectacular failures in particular will be reigned in. Nonetheless, it will still…

If you think the people who will be fooled into thinking AI is infallible don't think humans in power today are infallible, you're kidding yourself.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#405

Post by Dylan16807 »

thefringthing wrote: post #403
Dylan16807 wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A road has to be designed a certain way based on the speed. You can't just put up a speed limit sign, and speed limit signs are very often not based on what's safe.

You don't seem to be addressing the criticism of your argument, which is that urban speed limits are determined by likelihood of collision with another car, a bicycle, or a pedestrian in the event of an unexpected need to brake hard. This depends on more than just the physical engineering of the road.

There are lots roads with the same environment or with environments less likely to lead to collisions with cars, bicycles, and pedestrians that nevertheless get lower speed limits.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#406

Post by toomanybeersies »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #405
thefringthing wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to be addressing the criticism of your argument, which is that urban speed limits are determined by likelihood of collision with another car, a bicycle, or a pedestrian in the event of an unexpected need to brake hard. This depends on more than just the physical engineering of the road.

There are lots roads with the same environment or with environments less likely to lead to collisions with cars, bicycles, and pedestrians that nevertheless get lower speed limits.

This isn't the case in New Zealand. It's normal for all rural roads in New Zealand to be posted with a 100 km/h limit, with speed recommendations (not limits) on the corners.

Even winding mountain passes, which wouldn't be possible to take at 100 km/h without a race car will still have a 100 km/h limit. It's up to the driver to make a judgement as to how fast they can safely drive.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#407

Post by notSupplied »

GFischer wrote: post #35
rocqua wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the escalation is accessible, everyone will try it. That includes anyone who got handled correctly. And as detection becomes more accurate, an even larger ratio of escalations will be blatantly wrong. This explains why slightly inept well meaning companies shy away from such escalation paths. I wonder about the stats on appeals in court. How many are successful. How many go to an appeal at all. How costly is a sin…

Some games (League of Legends, Ingress) have or had crowdsourced 1st level appeals for minor infractions. Maybe that's the way to go. I know many volunteers answer Google's forums.

That system (the tribunal) is gone. It has been replaced by ML (probably trained by Tribunal data) and hence 99% automated.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#408

Post by Fnoord »

donkeyd wrote: post #363
Fnoord wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got a point system in The Netherlands. If you get too many points, you lose your license. However it only counts for new drivers. Which doesn't make sense at all, as its elitist towards the older adults.

Until you take a look at statistics on age vs. number of accidents. Young people ( [0] https://www.swov.nl/feiten-cijfers/factsheet/18-tot-en-met-2...

Except the law with the point driver's license doesn't count for young people (that'd be age discrimination), it counts for new drivers.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#409

Post by asmosoinio »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #281
asmosoinio wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - a well-known example was Anssi Vanjoki (former Nokia director) getting a fine of 116,000 euros for driving 75 km/h in a 50 zone. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm I have heard of other countries that have similar systems.

Huge fines for the rich are amusing but scaling that part of the cost doesn't address the core problem very well. Actually, a fee of 14 days of income sounds crippling to someone who's poor, so that's an example of it not helping at all .

> so that's an example of it not helping _at all_.

Not helping at all sounds exaggerated?

Surely that fines scale with your income make them more even?

Of course a fine may STILL hit harder on someone with less income - but surely this is more "even" than if the rich guy also got a fine of say 500 € which is pocket money for him?

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#410

Post by esotericn »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #400
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's quite strong evolutionary pressure on people not to abuse it. The ones that do often don't last very long.

That's pressure not to jump in front of cars. You don't have to jump in front of a car to trigger this rule, you just have to put one foot into the road.

It's unclear to me what the problem is, here.

Are you picturing bored teenagers doing this as a joke or something? In practice this is incredibly rare.

Such 'feral children' will be causing way worse problems elsewhere anyway.

If you're driving in London and someone gets a bit close to the edge of the footpath and looks like they might walk out, yes, you slow down and get ready to stop. If you actually think they're walking out, you brake hard.

Because you don't want to hit them.

But on a very basic level pedestrians have right of way in old world cities anyway.

There are junctions in Central London whereby cars often struggle to pass even when the light is green (Kings Cross station is a good one, taxi drivers like to "push" people out of the way by edging closer)

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