How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart • Hacker News Board

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#161

Post by tivert » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

tnecniv wrote: post #145

clarry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suburbs are structurally lonely My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living. Most people live in flats where nobody wants to have anything to do with their neighbor and there is no communality. People move in and move out, nobody cares. The less you have to hear of your neighbor, the better. FWIW I would rather have a 'burb castle than a…

But cities provide you with a means to find a community if you really want one. It's a lot harder and/or less convenient to find groups that do what you like to do if you live in a suburb.

> But cities provide you with a means to find a community if you really want one. It's a lot harder and/or less convenient to find groups that do what you like to do if you live in a suburb.

I think there's a problem with equating community with "groups that do what you like." That sounds like a definition that's been infected by the "personalization" the npunt was talking about in his first note.

Real communities have a lot more diversity than that, and they're usually not very personalized. It's often no so much about finding community, but forming communal bonds with the people already around you.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#162

Post by wenc » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #151

wenc wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If only because most people would say hi or smile even if you didn't know them as they walk past you. Ooh, this is highly dependent on the city you live in, and the neighborhood you're in. I've visited many/lived in a few cities in the U.S. and Canada, and hi/smiles are actually not that uncommon, especially in the midwest, the south and in Canada. It depends on the context of course. No one will greet you on a bus…

I'll agree it depends on location. I'm comparing vancouver to other small towns in bc where i've lived. And after thinking a little more on things i'm not too sure how I really feel now. Before I moved to the city I had a decent group of friends I was close with and I.knew enough people I could usually find someone to talk to or hang out with. In the city i've met lots of different people, some i've gotten fairly clo…

I've heard from Vancouverite friends that there has been a steady decline in common courtesies since the 80s, so you're not alone in feeling that. I've also had friends from Toronto who've found Vancouver socially somewhat cold, so much so that they've moved back to TO. Seattle (similar weather/people, i.e. cloudy weather, granola folks) is also well-known for the "Seattle Freeze" (where it's hard to connect with people), and I wonder if there's a similar phenomenon in Vancouver.

I hear you though. Finding a group of close friends you can hang out with is indeed a hard thing in most cities, and it takes a combination of effort and luck. One of the prerequisites of friendship is repeated personal exposure to each other, and cities do make that harder because they allow a range of individual lifestyles that are highly decorrelated. Unlike in smaller communities, in the city everybody does their own thing, and there are few central places where everyone gets together and meets regularly (there are a few exceptions, like continuing education classes, houses of worship, etc. I would recommend trying something along those lines).

Here's what I found though:

Friendships often start with getting to know 1-2 people, and it would help greatly if these people are sociable or are people connectors. If you can create a context where you can repeatedly meet with 1-2 people that you have something in common with (don't wait for invitations, reach out and invite them to stuff--there's a good chance that they will accept!), that will help to develop closer relationships, and from there, you will be slowly brought into existing networks. That's how it happened for me. I met this random couple who invited me to dinner, and then I invited them to dinner, and I gradually got to meet their friends and their friends' friends. It does take a bit of luck to find the right connections, but start small, and then try-and-fail a few times. Understand that there's a bit of randomness involved and accept that the process is not going to be as easy as in grade school, so sow your seeds widely and be prepared to say "yes" when opportunities arise, and to pick yourself up when people disappoint you. Best of luck.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#163

Post by Regardsyjc » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

wenc wrote: post #103

davidlee1435 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that Junger points to a mandatory draft as an example. Two counterpoints to that would be South Korea and Lithuania, which also have mandatory drafts and high rates of suicide per capita.

It seems to me that both you and the OP are correct. SK has a high level of social cohesion because of the threats it is under (militarily: NK, economically: China, Japan). Military service also creates a temporarily high degree of social cohesion among conscripts. Yet, it also has a high rate of suicide due to it being a competitive, high-pressure society. I'm guessing high social cohesion does not in itself lead to…

Suicide by the elderly is one of the big reasons why South Korea has a high suicide rate.

Sadly, I heard it might be because the old do not want to be a further stress on families in poverty. So maybe it is due to their high cohesion, very collective culture.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#164

Post by closeparen » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

sgt101 wrote: post #110

npunt wrote: post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

The need for and convenience of cars. Public transport promotes community, but cars isolate - in particular children. I daren't let my daughter ride down the lane on her bike, so she's trapped.

I’ve experienced a hell of a lot more community in the give and take of rides across suburbia than on transit, where 95% of interactions are someone asking for money.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#165

Post by AnimalMuppet » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

I think that we long for genuinely human interaction. The absence of that makes us lonely. But tech-mediated interactions reduce the amount of human interaction. (Having this conversation on HN isn't the same as us having the same conversation at a bar, even if we say the same things.) We get more interaction via tech (across the world, not just in the same room), but much of the human touch gets lost.

But I think the problem is bigger than that. Our philosophy has dehumanized us. It's basically a question of who we think we are.

As a society, we no longer believe in God. We believe in the physical universe - in matter and the laws of physics. That means that all we can be is matter that obeys the laws of physics. That's all we can be, because there is nothing else.

In particular, we can't have any free will or any ability to make a real choice. Matter that obeys the laws of physics doesn't choose anything - it just obeys the laws of physics. We're just machines made of atoms obeying the laws of quantm electrodynamics, which make up biochemicals obeying the laws of biochemistry, which make up neurons obeying the laws of neurology - and nothing more.

We can't love in the real sense of the word - choosing what's best for the one we love - because we can't choose anything. Even the lesser flavors of love are just a matter of biochemicals and neurons just doing their thing.

There's no real beauty in any objective sense - there's just certain things happen to hit our neurons in a certain way.

For that matter, there's no truth, either, and not just in the postmodern sense. If our brains were built by evolution, they were built to give a good enough answer fast enough. They were not built to find actual truth, even were such a thing to exist.

So in this view, free will, love, beauty, and truth - everything we thought of as making us human - are dead. We're just machines, just like the computers on our desks. As more and more people believe this (and start to act like it), it becomes more and more rare to be treated in a genuinely human way. The result is that we are lonely.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#166

Post by rdl » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

npunt wrote: post #37

solatic wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived on a kibbutz after college. It has its own set of problems. The closer you live to people, the more politics enters the picture. The less money there is to go around, the more that politics revolves around the relatively financially trivial. You can't force people to like each other just because they live in close proximity. The problem isn't finding people with shared interests and values, it's in building r…

The kibbutz (or kibbutz inspired) idea my friends and I have discussed is more about finding people you like and then forming it. I can definitely see it having downsides if you’re not actively involved in its formation.

I still have some hope for something like seasteading to do this in the next 10-20 years (before Mars/Luna are viable options). In the interim I'm trying something vaguely like it in PR.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#167

Post by coldtea » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #113

coldtea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An incredible point made was that Israel has the lowest suicide rate of all the third world countries, and guess what he attributes it to? Mandatory draft. The common stressor that every single countryman can empathasize with each other about is war. The second part would explain bigger empathy/cohesion (the have a common stressor), not less suicide. I'd say it's rather that the draft can make you see often BS pers…

How would that help? If the draft makes you hard enough for reala world without killing you, why doesn't the real world make you hard enough for real world without killing you? These "overprotecting parents" are still around in the real world (or not), so what's the difference?

>why doesn't the real world make you hard enough for real world without killing you

Obviously because the army does that in a controlled environment, where the expectations are already set for what you'll get (you're going there knowing it will be so and so -- and even at that there's army suicides, through much more rare considering the kind of stressor it is).

Whereas overprotected people can go into the adult world thinking they will crush it and be rich, famous, free of drudgery, have the perfect love life, marriage, or whatever just for showing up (or just for "working hard").

You also do that along with others around your age, and you all go through the exact same shit, and are at it together 24/7.

In short, the army emphasizes that you're not a precious snowflake from day one, you're just one of many in the camp, so you have time to soak this message in. Whereas in your "real life", failure will hit you hard, and it will feel like it's a personal failure.

And, last but not least, you also know it's gonna end in 1 year or so, and everything's compartmentalized. It's not your life. Whereas a failure to get that dream job and having to scrap by can feel like your life (in toto) being a failure.

>These "overprotecting parents" are still around in the real world (or not), so what's the difference?

The role of the "overprotecting parents" ends both when you enter the camp or the adult world. They can't fix things for you in either case (e.g. fix your broken job dreams or love life).

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#168

Post by tivert » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #94

clarry wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suburbs are structurally lonely My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living. Most people live in flats where nobody wants to have anything to do with their neighbor and there is no communality. People move in and move out, nobody cares. The less you have to hear of your neighbor, the better. FWIW I would rather have a 'burb castle than a…

The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA.

> The reason your city is so bad is in large epart because the families move away to suburbs. In the burbs, you still get disturbances like constant lawnmowers and leaf blowers, at least in lawn-crazy USA.

In the USA a lot of neighborly socialization is associated with yard work. The lawnmower is a signal your neighbor is out, and the polite thing to do is to chat when you run into each other. That's how I got to know my neighbors. If you weren't aware, you do shut off the machines when you talk.

The level of contempt you show for lawn work makes me thing you have little experience with it or some idiosyncrasies that cause you to hate it in an atypical way.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#169

Post by jeromegv » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

tokyodude wrote: post #93

npunt wrote: post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

Interesting that the my image is the exact opposite. Downtown no one talks to each other. They live in fancy apartment buildings and go out to their events. In the Suburbs, neighbors have BBQs, block parties. I knew all the people around the house when I lived in the suburbs. The Garys next door with their bull dog and their daughter Diane living in a detached apartment above the garage. The Alberas with a farm in th…

Opposite anecdata. Lived in the suburb until my 20s, never had a block BBQ party, my parents would sometimes have a chat with the neighbour but that's about it. Living now on the subway line in a major city, can hop in to get to see friends all the time, walk to the groceries, community center, etc. Don't talk to neighbour either, but I feel much more part of a community living in close proximity with people.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#170

Post by carapace » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

androidgirl wrote: post #84

Is there anything we can do to stop being lonely? Over the past few months, I have made great progress on developing habits to fight my depression. I wake up very early, hike, work on my side projects, and go to communal hacker spaces sometimes. However, I and many others still feel very lonely, it's like we all live in seperate bubbles and can't connect deeply. I have no idea what causes this divide. Have humans alw…

Arthur: "All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world."

Slartibartfast: "No, that's perfectly normal paranoia. Everyone in the universe gets that."

In all seriousness, the solution depends on the kind of loneliness you want to cure: if it's just social loneliness then you can join a choir or a sports team or a club or something. If, however, you have the deep existential loneliness then you're in trouble. You have to go on a quest of some sort, seek a vision, find a Faith, renew yourself somehow. Sincerity and persistence.